Harry Potter 6 !!!!!SPOILERS!!!!

Discussion in 'Books' started by Arwen, Jul 17, 2005.

  1. spectre

    spectre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    i cant believe snape would do that.. or was it that he wanted to die so harry would take his life into his own hands... why else would have begged?????
     
  2. vanaques

    vanaques New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2005
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    to the R.A.B thing: I've read the note a few times and this is what I cam up with:
    (some things might already have been mentioned)

    1) it is a deatheater

    2)He and voldy knew eaceother (voldy know him to)

    3) it said that when voldy finds out it isn't there he (RAB) hope voldy would be mortal again:
    -this death eater knew of at least one of the horcruxes
    - therefor was a realy highup death eater
    -knew which horcrux was there becaus he had the madalion with him (or at least something he could have transfigured into one)
    -that he most likely can't have destroyed it at once: I intend to destroy it as soon as I can.
     
  3. ninth_level_dan

    ninth_level_dan New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    cook islands, polynesia
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I think if Dumbledore has a Horcrux that is keeping a part of his soul alive, it would be Fawkes. Dumbledore said it could be an animal, and what better animal than Fawkes, who is nearly indestructible? It even solves the question of "Who did Dumbledore murder in order to split his soul in half?"... Simple... He could have burned Fawkes on a burning day... Fawkes is then reborn from the ashes and assume a piece of Dumbledore's soul.... Now, we just have to find Fawkes; Dumbledore will remain dead until we do.
    Just a theory of course....
     
  4. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    14,968
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Ratings:
    +124 / 0 / -0
    Interesting, but I don't agree. As Slughorn said (or what I think he said, anyway), it's very dark magic, and permanently damages your soul (of course, I don't have the book at the moment, so I can't give you an exact quote)...
     
  5. Seanachaidh_Leith

    Seanachaidh_Leith Grey Storyteller

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    Just slightly off topic, but I'd been irritated by a few things in JK's work since the third book. With the completion of this book, those items have been rounded squarely off to three things in particular. As the series progresses, the originality seems to decrease, while the questions about fine details increase. Since the books have been elevated to the point of infamy as the Lord of the Rings (J.R.R. Tolkien) and the Earthsea Cycle (Ursula K. LeGuin), I've found myself comparing them to each other, wherein lie my complaints. The three have to do with the Lord of the Rings. Dementors, in my opinion, have a huge parralell in the Black Riders/Ring Wraiths. The imagery accosiated with them as well as the "Dementors Kiss" runs along the same lines as the "Black Breath." Number 2 deals with Horcruxes. The base concept of the devision of a the soul of a diabolical being transferred into an object(s) is what JK has Voldemort do in book 6, and what Sauron had done first in the Lord of the Rings. This was, to me by far the most blasphemous act committed by JK yet :D The ending of the book was also LotR-esque, since you can paralell this with Sam and Frodo, Merry and Pippin, as far as the concept of sticking together through thick and thin goes. But since that's a broader spectrum and dificult to avoid paralells here, it's forgivable.

    The only other complaint i could possibly have is that all the displays of power and magic in this book raises questions, for me, on the origin of "Harry Potter Magic," as it were, and the basis for the spells and incantations that this vivid world is built on. In the Earthsea Cycle, the magic is half explained, while being explored and discovered along with the storyline. That there's no explanation, no "method behind the madness" (yet), I cant help but feel bewildered since there seems little rhyme, structure, reason, or rule to what happens in the HP books other than "the Ministry Says So."

    Overall concensus on the book, however: #5 still is king, but this is a close 2nd, to be sure. Can't wait for the next one.
     
  6. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    14,968
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Ratings:
    +124 / 0 / -0
    Hehe, I agree. Except that Sauron never put his soul into the Ring, only his power. :)
     
  7. mithrandir

    mithrandir Gentleman Scholar

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Chicago-ish
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    And it's about time too. They've been dancing around it long enough!

    The Ginny-Harry pairing makes perfect sense. She's had a crush on Harry since COS, they spend tons of time together (as Harry lives with the Weasleys off and on over holidays) and there are several hints about Harry thinking noticing Ginny's perfume early on. Besides, Harry is 16 going on 17. Since when does love at that age make much sense? It just sorta happens
     
  8. mithrandir

    mithrandir Gentleman Scholar

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Chicago-ish
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    And so many spoilers below (Egad)
















    So many theories

    1. Snape is just a twit - a clever and nasty twit, but a twit nonetheless. This is a pretty strong theory to me. It matches the most with what we have seen Snape do and react in various situations. However, it does force the conclusion that Dumbledore was fooled by this clever twit. Perhaps just my bias and like of Dumbledone, but this seems somewhat unlikely. Albus seemed to know everything.

    2. Dumbledore was already dead when Snape "killed" him. Dumbledore was dying and seemed to be going quickly. Perhaps as Snape approached he realized the headmaster was dead (remember, he has great skill in occulemency (sp?) - a point made numerous times by the other characters in the hospital wing after the fight) - Snape could have simply taken advantage of a bad situation. I think this one is pretty thin, but not outside the realm of possibiity.

    3. Returning to the Occulemency idea, it is possible that Snape and Dumbledore "spoke" briefly through this power. Others have suggested in this thread that maybe it was a plan. I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would plan his death - especially when returning with what he believed to be another horcrux. However, if Dumbledore knew he would not survive the poison potion from the cave, maybe he suggested a course of action to Snape to benefit the cause.

    4. Snape is under the Imperious curse. Something else that showed up a lot in this book. It would explain Dumbledore's ironclad trust in Snape. Its seems unlikely the Dumbledore would order his own death though and equally unlikely that he would actually use the imperious curse.


    I do think Snape is a fascinating character and it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I think JKR has left herself several outs to take Snape in a variety of directions. Still, I was shocked it was Snape who did Albus in. It wasn't too surprising that Dumbledore died though. The story needed Harry to be alone with no one older and wiser to protect him. He needed to have no one left to turn to (this is why poor Sirius also had to go). A showdown with the Dark Lord really wouldn't be possible until all of Harry's protectors were gone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2005
  9. TheRhino

    TheRhino New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    As is evident, the cup is not the huffle puff item mentioned by the memory presented during Albus' "lessons," I do agree however that it is possible that number 12 could contain a horcrux within it, namely the locket. It is equally possible that the particular horcrux in question has already been destroyed. My reasoning being as follows: Rowling made it quite obvious that number 12 belonged to Harry and then killed all mention of it and most regarding the order spending time there.. the exception being the appearance of Mundungus. She also did this quite early in HBP, possibly because she wanted to make number 12 available for book 7 and to get it out of memory in the readers mind. It is also possible she was just tying off loose ends regarding the order, seeing as the direction of the story is, in my opinion, going towards the individual acts of Harry, Ron, and Hermione and as suggested previously would require the elimination of the 'protector' or 'guardian' elements presented by Albus and the members of the Order.

    In regards to R.A.B. I intend to read several others views on the matter but my immediate response after my first reading of HBP was that R.A.B. was indeed Regulus Black. I reread Sirius' explanation of his death in book 5 and it is says that as Sirius understands it, Regulus got cold feet, tried backing out, and was killed as Sirius puts it "Or nn Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person." Rowling left the matter sufficiently vague enough to encompass scenarios in which Regulus could have taken the Horcrux. Sirius was not certain regarding the details of his death and Regulus was a Death Eater giving him certain advantages in the matter. The issue of Dark Magic being one, Albus seeks Snape's help in combating and healing the Dark Arts because Snape knows more about them. It's likely that Regulus, coming from a long line of dark, pureblooded witches and wizards, would have knowledge of the Dark Arts and have his Death Eater position through which he could have gained possession of the locket. More ominous was the letters point that he or she will most likely be dead when Voldemort reads it, an indication that the author had been expecting to die for some reason or other. Other possibilities have cropped up in my mind after my rereadings of the book, one possibility being that Amelia Bones was really R...... Amelia Bones or was a relative of the author. At the moment, however, I am still in favor of Regulus and see it quite likely that Harry is (or more likely was) aided by the late Regulus (A??? also as mentioned previously could have been named after his Uncle Alphard) Black.
     
  10. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Messages:
    4,128
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    t' hEmerald hOile
    Ratings:
    +62 / 0 / -0
    Another possibility for R.A.B. is that it is a title (like HBP). Although Regulus is looking most obvious (but since when has she gone for obvious?).

    The Snape situation has been artfully contrived, J.K.R deserves accolades for it alone. For every point for either argument there is an opposing point. The one thing that makes me lean either way is faith in Dumbledore. Snape is a highly accomplished actor (whichever side he's really on he's kept up the act perfectly for years) and, most importantly, is incredibly skilled at keeping people out of his mind.

    I believe that Dumbledore knew he was going to die, just not how. That's why he repeatedly claimed he was 'more expendable', took more risks (like getting his hand withered) and refused to allow Harry to do anything remotely dangerous for him. It's like seeing the future and knowing you're going to be alive next week, you're indestructible 'til then. Dumbledore wouldn't have thrown his life away but if he was definitely going to die soon then he could take on any danger. If he survived it then they were one up and if he died it was no loss.

    I'm sure he knew about the Unbreakable Vow and had given Snape the same orders he gave Harry, carry on and keep your eyes on the prize. I'm not saying he expected what happened but he accepted it. I don't think he would have begged Snape NOT to kill him, it was either an act to convince the Death Eaters or begging Snape to remember his orders. I think we see some of Snape's emotional turmoil during his escape and there is the additional fact that he had Harry absolutely at his mercy but chose to let him go. Sure you can argue that he said Harry was Voldemort's and that Buckbeak, sorry, Witherwings drove him off but he could have easily petrified Harry and carried him off.

    I think the whole situation with Malfoy was a hint to the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape, repetition of past events.

    And finally, an upbeat note. Dumbledore is not gone. Sure he's dead but I think there's an element of the Obi-Wan to it, "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine..." He's still there in his portrait. He can now travel to any other portrait of himself, anywhere.

    And do you remember another minor fact from earlier in the series? When Dumbledore was dismissed from the Wizengamot (sp?) and booted from Hogwarts what did Ron say was the only thing he cared if he kept? His place on the Chocolate Frog cards...
     
  11. Linkk06

    Linkk06 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2005
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    About RAB, his note to Voldemort was divided into seven lines and I think each might have contain a different clues about RAB. Since I'm thinking RAB might be Regulus I've put some of my reasons and some questions brought up by the note.

    "To the Dark Lord". That's what death eaters call Voldemort, and Regulus was a death eater wasn't he? If he went good he might not call him the dark lord anymore, but it may be out of habbit from being a former death eater, or he couldn't resist showing Voldemort that it was he, who used to be one of his own death eaters, that discovered and destroyed the horcruxe(s).

    "I know I will be dead long before you read this..." Regulus died around the time Harry was born. That was almost 17 years ago and Voldemort may not even have read it yet. I think that might be long enough.

    "...but I want you to know it was I who discovered your secret." If Regulus knew he was going to die, this seems like he's saying "Yeah, you killed me, but not before I found and destroyed your horcruxes." TheRhino posted something Sirius said concerning Regulus's death. "Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person." Typical JKRowling, providing explanations for why things happen a certain way to make you look past the other options. This makes me think maybe Regulus was higher up than we know, and if a high-up backed out or got caught dong something good Voldemort may well have killed him in person.

    "I have stolen the real Horcruxe and intend to destroy it as soon as I can." What was stopping him from destroying the hrocruxe then, and more importantly, was it ever actually destroyed?

    "I face death in the hope that when you meet your match," is this "facing death" the danger of trying to get all the horcruxes safely, being caught/found out, or something entirely different? He also says "when you meet your match." By that does he mean Harry, the night he got his scar and sent Voldemort from his body, or does RAB somehow know about the prophecy? Or, going on Turambar's theory about Snape killing Voldemort, since he never directly named Harry as "your match" in the letter, maybe it means someone else entirely and Snape really is going to kill Voldemort. Either way, it all implies that he knew something that was going to happen. How?

    "You will be mortal once more," signed "RAB" are the last two lines. It may also be possible that RAB are initials known only by the author and Voldemort himself. He never says anything about the other horcruxes either. Through the whole note it sounds like he's laughing at Voldemort because he never thought anyone would find his horcruxes, but RAB did. RAB also makes it sound like he couldn't destroy the horcruxes without let Voldemort know it was he who did it. It's almost like he's gloating. What could Voldemort have done to make one of his trusted death eaters turn against him so badly that he had to let Voldemort know it was him? It makes me think Voldemort did something terrible or humiliated RAB and he had to get back at him somehow. Here's a link to an interesting site supporting how Regulus might've been good. Whoever destroyed the horcruxes was probably good.

    Everything I've written could very easily be wrong or a bucn or jibber jabber but it's just my thoughts on RAB.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2005
  12. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Messages:
    4,128
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    t' hEmerald hOile
    Ratings:
    +62 / 0 / -0
    I think that destroying a Horcrux is not an easy matter. I'm not sure about the diary incident (too long since I read CoS but Dumbledore nearly died destroying the ring's power. This may have been how Regulus met his end, and he knew it would be.
     
  13. Isaac29GT

    Isaac29GT Spawn of Skyanide

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,204
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ontario
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0
    thats EXACTLY what i thought!!! great minds think alike. I thought of that myself. I liked this book all in all. For sure one of my favs of the series. Poor Dumbledore
     
  14. Hehrenya

    Hehrenya Elvish for 'Jessica'

    Joined:
    May 23, 2005
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    QLD, Australia
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Well....um I'm just happy about Lupin and Tonks :)

    The book is so melancholy though, the story has shifted and all that matters for Harry is killing voldemort. :(
     
  15. holly st.Raven

    holly st.Raven Romlux

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    418
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Po
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0
    I will not go of and on about the teories and other such. What I had to say 'bout all of that, I'we said in other treads. I'm here just to leave my impressions, no much, no less.

    There are two things I can honestly say 'bout HBP, and They are WOW and Ouch.

    There are just so many, 'I knew it!'s, 'told you so's, and 'God why in the nine circles of hell, and the tomb in the ceter of Dis, did I have to be right about that!!"