Gun control

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by curunir's bane, Jun 3, 2004.

  1. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    yes but mostly you do hear about these cases in America, is that a coincidence? I doubt it. Of course you'll have other cases in other countries, where homicides take place, but America takes gold when it comes to these cases. In Canada they use guns, just as in America, still you'll find a lot less nutcases who use these guns for such causes as this. So there is another reason what drives these people in doing so.
     
  2. Senekha

    Senekha <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    There is a good reason you hear of many fewer school shootings in Canada than in the US.

    We have gun control.

    It's pretty simple.

    True, the States have a higher population and therefore it should be expected that they have a few more, but it is more than that.

    And of course, it's the person behind the gun that does the killing. However, would said person be as likely to commit mass murder with a firearm if firearms were much harder to obtain? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Oh, he might go pick a fistfight, club someone with a crowbar, but can you walk into a school with a crowbar and kill 15 people before getting stopped?

    Would you [talking to everybody, even though I quoted Anakin] prefer to live in a country that is "free" and allows fairly loose gun possession laws, and have to worry about your child/sibling/friend in college who might fall victim to the next, ever-more-common school shootings? OR live in a country that has a stricter gun control (but it is possible for anyone who truly wants a gun for recreational purposes to get one, through training and licenses) and far less shootings?
     
  3. Padmé

    Padmé Mrs Cascador

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    The problem doesn't lie just with the gun control laws there, it's the mentality of the people and the society they live in. If you live in a society where the media projects constant fear, be afraid of terrorists, be afraid of gangs and drug dealers, be afraid of your neighbour, be afraid of your teenage children, a society can't survive that kind of stress. And when they have guns easy at hand, you just know that's a bad combination! Minds needs to change at the same time as the gun control laws do.
     
  4. volksmenner

    volksmenner practitioner of æsthetics

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    it is a tragedy freedom is not for everyone. most people cannot handle freedom, for that matter, cannot handle other's freedom. and so the people summon the demonic powers of government to secure their safety for fear of freedom. for once i might agree with padme in that people, not only americans, are all too easily ruled by fear of this and that and all else so as to be slaves.

    the war on terror...the war on drugs...the war on poverty. by words so much as lies the people of the world relinquish a freedom here, a freedom there, so that they may purchase false security. and on into old age, no more mature of mind than when birthed from the womb, the people nurse at the teat of government, poisoned by her foul milk and never know the meaning of life.

    i choose to live in a country that is the closest to what may be called free. each time i step outside my door i breathe an air that comes at a premium. i accept this fact and would not have it any other way. i do not fear freedom. i do not fear dying a freeman. and so terrorism and all other forms of violence that may at random come into my life, what of it?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2008
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  5. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Not an option for me, liberty first. The illusion of security and safety is the excuse for every lost freedom.
     
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  6. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Gun control will never be introduced to America, because they love their guns too much. If civilian gun ownership was banned tomorrow, nobody would hand their guns in, they'd just hide them away.

    Yes people kill people, but people using guns can kill lots and lots of people who have zero chance of defending themselves. At least you can train in self defense for disarming an attacker armed with a knife or a baseball bat. With guns, you can train how to get shot in the back as you run away.




    Enjoy? Not at all. But it just keeps coming up, again and again and again and it's one of my pet peeves. And it is a cultural difference between the US and other countries, as vast a difference of opinion as on gay marriage, abortion, politics, the war or terror etc.

    Knife wielding maniac kills 5 people before being wrestled to ground. Gun wielding maniac kills 35 people then shoots himself as police close in.

    I'd wager that most of these mass shootings are carried out by legally owned firearms. So yes, you can buy illegal weapons if you are desparate, but chances are they just went to their own gun cabinet, or daddy's gun cabinet, and used the firearms that were legally owned.

    Personally, if I got really pissed off and wanted to get an illegal gun and shoot someone, I would have no clue where to go and who to ask, that wouldn't involve me getting my arse kicked and robbed while trying :D
     
  7. Elvenwriter

    Elvenwriter Mmmm, Spam

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    my theory is: if no one owns a gun, why would anyone need a gun? we can have special gun rental shops for when people want to go hunting!
     
  8. Raff the Sweetling

    Raff the Sweetling Threadkiller

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    I own numerous guns. I have a clean record and have to go through a background check to buy one. My guns are registered, and I use them for strictly for hunting. They are all trigger locked in a locked gun cabinet, and the ammo is locked up seperately.

    With all that being said, there is nothing stopping me if I want to freak out someday and get trigger happy. So other than taking guns away period, there is no gun regulations that are going to stop these incidents totally. No matter what "regulations" are put on guns, I have no doubt that I could get one. I have no problem with auto, and semi auto restrictions, or back ground checks, or fingerprinting, or waiting periods or blah, blah, blah....but the truth is, most of this stuff is already in place. So Im not sure how much more can be put in place with out taking guns away totally. And that wont stop killing either. It will just be knives and machettes and pipe bombs instead of bullets. People are freaks, and I think its pathetic that we cant grasp that reality, and stop blaming the means used to carry out disgusting acts.

    The guy that killed his kids...I guess if he didnt have a gun, he wouldnt have killed them, and he would be totally sane right now?
     
  9. Killbot608

    Killbot608 prototype killing machine

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    cool, what do you hunt, i assume mostly deer and such.

    anyhoo, i don't have a problem with guns, but i'm not sure enough is being done to prevent them from ending up in the wrong hands, it'll never be perfect but IMO there's a lot of room for improvement in this case.
     
  10. Elvenwriter

    Elvenwriter Mmmm, Spam

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    he still would have been able to kill them through other methods, if he wanted to that bad. and now that you have listed all the regulations. i agree wholeheartedly
     
  11. Raff the Sweetling

    Raff the Sweetling Threadkiller

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    Yes there is always room for improvement. Even as a gun owner I agree they should be regulated fairly heavily. Ive never understood the fanatics that act like "any" regulation is bad. If you have nothing to hide, why worry about regulations? Alot more should be done to get illegal black market guns off the streets that account for alot of crime. And they need to change some of the loopholes regarding person to person sales. In alot of states, if you buy a gun from a retailer you have the background check, blah, blah .....but you can buy from another individual (I could sell you my gun) without reporting it. This includes gun shows. So if you dont want your name in the system, you can go to the yearly gun show in the state, and stock up.

    As far as hunting, I actually try to do all my hunting using strictly my bow. But if a particular season is winding down and I dont have my kill tags filled, I will break out the gun in a fit of desperation. On a yearly basis, I always hunt Whitetail, Turkey, predator (coyote, bobcat) and Russian Boar, and my brother and I try to go on a couple of exotic hunts each year. Last year we only got in one for Fallow deer. Other than the predators wich are mostly for fur and management, I eat everything I kill. My family loves it and its much healthier than any store bought meat. Saves a ton of money too. We usually dont have to buy meat from september through about march. I was going to put some pics in the "pics of yourself" thread until I realized all my pics have a bloody animal in them.

    Forgive me, Im bored and rambling.
     
  12. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    My point is that I could disarm you if you attacked me with a knife. If you've got a gun, you can kill as many people as you have bullets. You also need to be within arm's reach to stab/bash me, but you can be a mile away with a gun.

    I'm not an unrealistic fool. I know guns are everywhere and would still be available on the black market. But coming from a country with far fewer guns, and far fewer gun crimes (they still happen), it seems logical that reduction of guns will lead to a reduction in gun crime.

    Do you know why gun shows are exempt from requiring waiting periods etc? I understand they're travelling shows so if you make a sale you'd then have to post a gun to the customer, which is probably illegal. But it is a massive, massive loophole.
     
  13. Raff the Sweetling

    Raff the Sweetling Threadkiller

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    I agree with your logic.

    I assume its a political appeasement to certain gun lobbyists in washington. All the big manufacturers along with the NRA and the who's who of the gun world despise any regulation. The government (due to common sense and public desire from some sectors) has to put some restrictions out there to look like they care enough to do something. But the real issue as usual is money, money, money. So if some loop holes are left to appease the gun companies, and lobbyists, everyone wins. Guns are as you know a major deal in the states, and a huge orginization like the NRA can make or brake an election if they decide to support you or not. So in my opinion its all political. This of coarse is all speculation, but this is a well known loophole and is swept under the rug everytime it comes back up. Meanwhile the NRA keeps proping up certain politicians. Maybe Im wrong, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck........
     
  14. Killbot608

    Killbot608 prototype killing machine

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    nah, i find it pretty interesting stuff. i've always wanted to go hunting but i think at the moment, seing as im only 16 and living in england, the closest i'll get is shooting rats with an air rifle. hunting with a bow would be cool i've always wanted to do archery too, just never got around to it :(.
     
  15. Raff the Sweetling

    Raff the Sweetling Threadkiller

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    Thats always a good time when all else fails.
     
  16. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    In my opnion the second amendment of the constitution is completely misinterpreted. It does not guarantee anyone the right to own a gun.

    Exuse me for a minute: **grabs shield to block onslaught of gun ativists**


    The second amendment clearly states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

    In order to understand the meaning of the amendment you have to put it into context. Many people take it out of context today. It was written during a time when no sound military existed and no strong common law was formed. The United States relied heavily on minutemen who formed this militia. They needed to be ready to fight without a moments hesitation if the states were attacked. This is why they were given the "right to keep and bear arms" (speaking of which, the "right to keep and bear arms was never truly defined so how can we REALLY know what it means). So today it really doesn't hold any meaning... or at least it shouldn't. These days we don't need a militia of minutemen. We have the military. They ARE our militia. So really all the constitution gurantees is that you can in fact have the "right to keep and bear arms".... if you want to keep and bear arms then join the militia (the military or police force).


    It seriously blows my mind that people will argue against this. There's no simple way to put it... the argument is incorrect. The supreme court is incorrect in upholding that belief.

    Now, what exactly is the right to keep and bear arms? Can anyone tell me? My guess is no you can't because it was never defined in the constitution. Maybe the amendment meant the right to keep pitchforks and knives for defense. It doesn't say the right to keep and bear guns ANYWHERE. Arms could mean anything.
    Keep in mind that the amendment was created to have protection for the states against the American government itself (This is an argument that many pro-gun activist use to support their rights to own guns). Well today the government owns nuclear bombs. Well how am I supposed to protect myself against a government who can obliterate me and thousands more with the press of a button. Well the constitution says I have the right to keep arms... a nuclear bomb is one of those arms.... hmmmmm I think you get the picture.


    Anyway, with that said I would like to give my personal view on guns. Do I think they should be outlawed? No. I think people should be able to own them but it needs to be a privilege not a right. There is NO reason why they should be a right. They should be highly regulated. Strict gun control laws should be placed on them. And people should have formal training if they are going to own it. Honestly it should be like driving a car. A Drivers license is privilege... not a right. Everyone (once they reach a certain age) has the right to apply for a driver's but you have to pass a test in order to recieve it. It should be the same way for guns.
     
  17. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    How do you not get it Mub? If those other students owned guns they CLEARLY would have stopped him by shooting him down (but let's not mention the other kids that might have been killed or injured by misfires in the crowd). Instead maybe the REAL issue is campus security. Let the guns be in the hands of the professionals. Duh!!!! It;s so simple... the files are INSIDE the computer.
     
  18. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Ummm why bother getting an illegal gun Mub? You can get one legally much more easily. My brother went into cabellos and bought a shotgun for hunting. All he needed was an ID showing that he was over 21. They did a quick little background check (at least he says that he THINKS they may have done one) and he was good to go. $400 bucks and if he ever got pissed off at someone he could easily end their life with the squeeze of a trigger.


    Oh but it's just one person. There's millions more that haven't been killed by guns. Pah lease. That's a ridiculous argument at best. How can anyone measure the cost of one life?
     
  19. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    And what if he was using a knife? There are quite a few people that can stop a knife attack. I don't know too many though that can stop bullets.


    Edit: On a side note... I know you can't always regulate the people buying the guns. You don't always know what they are going to do. However, I bring up these points to play devils advocate. They are points that should be taken into consideration.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  20. Killbot608

    Killbot608 prototype killing machine

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    wow... that was a mouthfull. ^^ i am obligated to agree there bane.