government

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Beldaran, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Beldaran

    Beldaran Guest

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    governments aren't that bad.. i think people should think about what would happen if there were no governments at all(think of the revolutions). As was stated in the federalist papers...

    “If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.”

    it's the nature of men to be selfish.. i think we should look more at the things that the government does well, which actually is a lot if you think about it. That does not mean we cannot look at the faults, otherwise we couldn't solve problems. governments are in general corrupt in a more or lesser way and do a lot of awful and stupid things, but they also do good. A lot of people say they are not free to do as they please and whine about all the rules, but isn't there something of truth in what hobbes said about to be able to be free and fulfil your desires, is to give up your rights, so every person can get equal rights :).

    i posted this in the christianity thread :) but i would like to know what other people's opinions on the topic are. Crouton stated that governments generally don't do good (crouton please correct me if i'm wrong :)) and i answered with the above-mentioned post. so, please what do you think?
     
  2. Hater`

    Hater` headless hater

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    *insert wise and witty post*
    because to lazy to write right now. goona do later.

    but in general governments s*$^, and I hate them.
     
  3. Beldaran

    Beldaran Guest

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    I appreciate you giving your opinion, but the thing about debating is that you reason and argue why you have a certain opinion :). If you're too lazy right now to write it, please just don't post and wait till you aren't lazy anymore and post something good :).
     
  4. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I think Beldaran's point about governments providing stability is a good one. I have to wonder if a good chunk of that stability comes more from the civil service than the political party who's in power. The civil service is the governmental machinery that doesn't change with every new election and I think that's what really keeps things running. Decisions roll down from the top of parliament hill and sure, they can have far-reaching effects, but it's the day to day boring stuff that the civil service does that keeps everything from falling apart.
     
  5. Firiath

    Firiath Halfling barbarian

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    I think the problem with governments is not that they do bad or good or more bad than good, but the people are the problem. No matter what a government does, there will always be people against it, and I think that's only natural. This is why there is a constant whining about politicians around the world (of course sometimes also for other, legitimate reasons). Maybe we who live in first world countries should consider that whatever our governments do, there's far worse out there in the world.

    And of course that doesn't mean "stop complaining!". Keep complaining, but combine it with actually doing something. :p [/pretentious mode]
     
  6. Hater`

    Hater` headless hater

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    The problem with governments is that that they all are corrupted, like, I mean, If you would be in a place of power would not you do good for your friends and family? I would. That`s the problem. Imagine you are sitting in a chair of parliament, and a proprosition comes up, hey let`s do road works, and you hmm yea, My friend got the road work company, and vuala in a mystical way your friends company won. Let`s not be naive here, it all corrupted I`m not saying that socialims or comunism was better than the democracy, but it has mayor issues, at least in my country. Were we have economical crisis, people have no money, and my government makes a 2.5 milion EUR project, that will make the largest bench in the world. No I am not sh*ing you. Why not spend that money to upgrade schools? Or help childercare, or fix hospitals. No let`s do the worlds largest hobo bed. F*ck that. Another fact. Let`s see 3 billion EUR for a library..or you f*ing kidding me. Yes no corruption there.

    F*ck governments.
    People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

    Remember remember the 5th of november.

    If riot goes up, I gonna go and f*&k my government up.
     
  7. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    Governmrnt should also serve people, not rule them...
     
  8. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    what about women?

    Na okay, bad joke, but its always so fun to read its all about the word 'man' xD just keeps me thinking about boys. Not people in general.


    But yes, the government. We have a pretty decent one here in sweden, and i don't complain a lot. But, as Hater said people get so corrupted! And a wise man (yes man) once said, (don't remember who) that power corrupts. And that's really the truth of it. At-least the way i see it. Once someone gets to have too much power, they start to handle it badly. They either use the power for bad stuff or steal money etc. But as Firi said; there's so much worse countries in the world, and their government being real corrupt. Sitting on millions while the people have nothing.

    I think the people should have more of a say in everything, more elections to the people! And more importantly, people should engage.. I don't know how many of my friends complain over the current political party in the parliament, but didn't even raise their asses of off the sofa to vote.

    And i think people want something to complain over, we are never happy. Thats like unachievable for the human race... Can't be happy about everything, always something to complain about. And if one is, another isnt. Can't be perfect when you share a country with millions of other people with different values, political opinions, religion, cultures, etc.

    Now governments might not seem to do lots of good, but i think they do. BUT.. i think the media just brings up the bad stuff, and that way people only see the crap they do, all the bad. And they form their opinion around that. At least in the more rich countries. Where its actually going well for the people. Where the standards are pretty high, even for the poor.
    And if we were without our will to constantly change and evolve, to have things better around us. We'd still be living in caves..
     
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Interesting, but dangerous assumption. An assumption it is, though.

    And then what?

    You see, a government is merely the highest body of authority in a country. There will always be one, regardless of elections, protests, revolts or coups. The concept of government can only be defeated by despotic leadership, in which case there usually still is a government, if only to fill it with puppets. Short of that exception, government is, by itself, neutral.

    And another thing; it is usually filled with people like you and me, albeit smart people like you and me. When it comes to that, governing is a tough job. Unpopular, under payed and more stressful than comparative jobs. The people ending up in a government are usually equally suited to lead multi million (billion) companies. Or, even better, start one themselves. Contrary to popular believe, I don't think they are in it for the money.

    There are also people who want to change the way the country is going (or support the way it is going). I would say politician is a vocation, more than a way to make money. It is, for instance, by no means a sure career path. Assuming a democracy, your party should be elected in such a way, for instance, that you can assume a position in government. And of the most suitable candidates, you should come out tops. It takes a lot (a lot) of investment in both time and energy to get there. Again, if you want to Make Money, corporate enterprise is a much better way to go. And there's always the risk of being fired. A small fart in the wrong direction can lead you to a position in which resigning is the only way out. Huge risk.

    Over time, I have met a few people In Charge, or people close enough to bear witness. I am sure that some do carry alterior motives. But the general theme is that they genuinely feel both privileged to hold a position in government and feel responsible for they way they conduct and will try to practice it in the best way they can.

    Oh, and a small word of advice. With a few possible exceptions, we all live in democracies. If you feel democracy is going the wrong way and if you feel you can do better, then do go into politics. It only works if people are inclined to be part of a political party and voice their opinion. The more the better. As an added bonus, you will try to appreciate how things work and why people and governments make the choices they do.
     
  10. Hater`

    Hater` headless hater

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    I sort of agree with you, but see, here is historical FACT. Basic idea of government was born in time when "word and honor" was actually worth something. A man without his word or honor was no man. But this principle does not work in nowadays, people lie just to get elected etc etc. I`m not saying that we should all go to dictators or despotic civilizations, we have to make elections and processes in government see-trough, visible for all. Many laws and/or adjuctions take place in secret without masses knowing it, and so on. All Political activities should be visible to everyone.
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I understand what you say, but I disagree. In a working democracy, there is always a moment of accountability. It includes accountability in front of houses of representation; in media; in public; in elections; in court and/or; within the party structure. Every single citizen is capable of forcing at least two forms of these accountability, possibly triggering others. If you can't, then that's a sure sign you don't live in a liberal democracy. My experience with those is... limited.
     
  12. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what history you're talking about because there has never been a time in history when men ruled with honor, when justice for all was paramount, and a man's word was worth keeping. If governments are corrupt it's because the people they govern are corruptible. The first city states, kingdoms, dynasties, were all created as a foundation for expanding power... that is, having a centralized government was a more productive way to conduct WAR.
     
  13. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I agree 100% with this statement. The funny thing is that the solution to this problem is extremely simple and yet unbelievably hard. It's simple because we all face choices in life and as individuals, we can choose not to be corrupted. It's often extremely hard to make that choice because in the world we live in, there are always consequences for taking the moral high road. I'll give you an extreme and arbitrary example: A high government official is offered a large bribe to aid some big corporation in a tax evasion scheme. The corporation fully expects him to take it for obvious reasons but he takes the moral high road and refuses. He starts to receive threats to his family's safety and knows who's responsible but can't prove anything. Suddenly, he wishes he'd taken the bribe. Could something like that really happen when lots of money is at stake? Hmmm... I have to wonder. That person faces a REALLY hard choice, and can we really judge them for it? The ironic thing is that if everyone chose not to be corrupted, nobody would ever face a choice like that...simple, but unbelievably hard!
     
  14. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I think you make good points but I would add FEAR as probably the worst corrupter of people and their government. Too often the government we choose is a representation of our own individual fears... fear of people who are different from us, immigration policy, laws prohibiting Gay Marriage, etc. We use government to promote and even dictate our own personal philosophy and oblige others to live by those same moral standards, whether they like it or not.
     
  15. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Good point Sparrow. Morality is something that is very specific to each individual and you're right: government does get mixed up in it all the time. Political parties often use moral standards as a campaigning platform to gain votes and once they're in power, put policies in place to force the moral standards of their supporters on everyone. I don't know what the answer to that is but to examine our fears individually and rationalize why we have them. Are they really necessary or are we just being intolerant of someone else's harmless differences? We are responsible for those we elect to government. Everyone in a democracy has to vote based on their own moral compass and try to elect people who they feel will do the best at the job of governing. Be careful who you vote for! If their policies include intolerance for the harmless differences of others... you may want not want to support them. I think in the end it comes down to critically evaluating our own fears... and conquering them if necessary. That inner, self examination is something we can all choose to do.
     
  16. Gayle Miller

    Gayle Miller New Member

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    Depends on which government as well. Can't stand English politicians who are forever giving away Scottish waters, resources and using the people as Guinea pigs. Not to mention we have no real voice in the General Elections. Scottish government, however, I fully back. Our SNP may not be perfect but they do have Scotland's best interests at heart. Will be interesting to see how things change should we get our independence. Governments should work for the people to benefit everyone. Unfortunately, most are ruled by the corrupt and greedy which is why bills are passed that benefit the rich and upper middle classes primarily.
     
  17. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    The Government can be hilarious. At least they put on a nice little circus in Parliament house to keep me entertained with their ridiculous antics.
     
  18. Gayle Miller

    Gayle Miller New Member

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    Hahaha and all the booing and hissing makes you wonder if you're watching a pantomime.
     
  19. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    Haha, the petty blows at oppositions, the back and forth debates that turn into full blown arguments with yelling and many a curt hand gestures. It makes for good TV.
     
  20. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    AH!.. I laugh like a madman... if Scots were so concerned about Scotland they'd have cut the English apron string long ago. What's keeping you from recreating Scotland as a sovereign state, completely independent of Mother England? If you can't stand English Politicians than rule thyself.

    My dad was born in Glasgow, was a second pilot in the RAF flying bombers out of North Africa during WWII, and he always said, "I didn't know who I hated worse, the Germans or the English". After he was demobbed and shipped back to cruddy old Glasgow, he packed his meager belongings and made his way to America, and never once looked back.

    From my own experience, kilts are as ridiculous as the Amish people here wearing suspenders and what is a kilt, but a poor excuse for a catholic schoolgirl's uniform. And bagpipes are only a musical instrument if you enjoy the sound a cat makes while being burned alive. :)