Gollum: Hero?

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Radagast, Sep 12, 2003.

  1. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    The "definition" of a hero was posted above. I don't see how your feeling that Gollum's world was torn apart and so on makes him eligible for the Title of hero.

    The fact the society labels people as hero's when they did not intend it to be that way is redundant. Society judges people to be many things that they are not.

    You can't just go around handing out hero sign's to everyone who has had a bad day.

    I wonder why you would say that above all Gollum wanted to make sure Sauron did not get the ring. The whole premis of Gollums personality is that he is obsessed with obtaining the ring for himself. He served Frodo for that purpose, and he tried to kill him for the same reason.
     
  2. Strider

    Strider Eccentric

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    Yah websters definition of Hero...thats just one definition.

    As posted above Tolkien said himself Gollum would kill himself and destroy the ring before Sauron would take it. Tolkien also said he would destroy the ring to save Frodo. And I'm not saying because he had a bad day he's a hero. I'm just saying everyone does have a bad day and therefore Gollum for one instance wanting to kill Sam and Frodo because he had been betrayed by them shouldn't condemn him.

    Also in my dictionary is this quote: Each man is a hero and oracle to somebody. --Emerson.

    So there you go. The dictionary is handing the hero sign to everybody.

    A hero is someone who saves the world. Without Gollum all of Middle Earth would have been destroyed. For one moment don't think about who did it, but the actions done. Maybe Gollum didn't intend on being a hero but that was out of his control. Gandalf said there is a power greater than them all and maybe that power was using Gollum to do good without his knowledge. Even Gandalf said Gollum had some part to play and his part saved millions of lives.
     
  3. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    OK, not to kick a dead horse here, but I still have an arguement or two left.

    If gollum was willing to destroy the ring to save Frodo, then why did he try to kill Frodo to get the ring?

    Yes, gollums action did save millions of lives. You could also argue that Sauron's actions saved millions of lives. If he would have kept a closer watch on Mount Doom he would have captured the ring and destroyed Middle Earth. So in the same respect Sauron is a hero, right?
     
  4. Strider

    Strider Eccentric

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    He never intended to kill Frodo to get the ring right away. It was afterwards that he decided they were being mean to him that he planned on killing Frodo. Other than that I don't know why Tolkien decided Gollum would destroy the ring to save Frodo.

    I guess that is true that Sauron did in a way destroy his ring by not paying too much attention but Gollum is not like Sauron. Why do you think Gollum is so evil? Because he wanted to kill Frodo and Sam? He just wanted to...he never did. Sam wanted to kill Gollum...so isn't he the exact same as Gollum?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2003
  5. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    True there are similarities between Sam and Gollum, however, Sam wanted to kill Gollum out of self preservation. If I remember correctly Frodo also made mention of it.

    If Gollum would not have been following them around, (stalking). They prolly would not have felt that way.
     
  6. Strider

    Strider Eccentric

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    Nor would they have gotten to the Black Gates.
     
  7. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    or fed to Shellob.
     
  8. Strider

    Strider Eccentric

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    But if they had never encountered Shelob, Sam would never have been forced to find the strength within himself to save Frodo and therefore may not have been as courageous. Sure Sam was a strong hobbit, but that moment when he realized Frodo was still alive and had to go rescue him, that was like a moment when he truly found the hero in him. All thanks to Gollum.
     
  9. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    True, but it would have been better if it hadn't happened that way. I think Sam would have found his courage eventually.
     
  10. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    That's kinda like saying the the survivors of the holocost (sp?) should be grateful since they are surely stronger for having gone through it.
     
  11. Strider

    Strider Eccentric

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    You know what it all comes down to is your definition of a hero. To me Gollum is the hero because he did what no one else could. Whether he meant to or not...he saved the day. And a hero saves the day. He did a heck of a lot that led to the destruction of the ring starting from the day he and Smeagol discovered the Ring in the river. If he hadn't killed Smeogol, he never would have it, Bilbo would never have gotten it and therefore Frodo would not have and we wouldn't have a story to read. Gollum was a tool being used and was made a hero by things out of his control. Fate made him a hero IMO
     
  12. Tolman Muggworts

    Tolman Muggworts claymore wielding hobbit

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    Um, Smeagol is Gollum. Smeagol killed Deagol.
    Ok, I kinda think of it this way. When Judas betrayed Jesus to his death (for his own profit) he was and is considered in no way a hero. Jesus said that it would have been better if he had never been born than to betray the savior of the world. Yet, if Jesus hadn't died we would all be going to Hell. So even though Gollum ended up saving Middle-Earth, he was still trying to serve himself and not help others at all. So, like it or not Gollum isn't a hero, in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2004
  13. Ranger of the North

    Ranger of the North Captin of the Rangers

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    well yeah Gollum could be called a hero cause he did something heroic but he just did it for himself and the trip in to the fires so really it was just dumb luck that he triped so I really dont think he is a hero...
     
  14. isengard111

    isengard111 The Master Chief

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    Wow, you guys are going deep here.

    To me, Gollum is an "anti-hero", to quote from Pitch Black. He was evil, but he did good things, and managed to save everyone. But in the end, I think everyone who had the chance to slay Gollum but didn't are also heroes. Pity and Mercy are the true saviors of Middle Earth.
     
  15. Ranger of the North

    Ranger of the North Captin of the Rangers

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    well said well said
     
  16. Iluvatar2004

    Iluvatar2004 New Member

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    ok my opinion...*and im sure no one cares lol*....gollum is in no way a hero...Granted, he did save middle earth, but that was not his intention. his intentions were purely selfish and that is in no way a quality of a hero
     
  17. keithnotis

    keithnotis New Member

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    To answer this question, I think the most important thing to remember is that Gollum was in effect two people. or two hobbits, however you want to think of it. Gollum, and Smeagol. these are two seperate personalities, with as much independence and selfhood as two real seperate people. and there was a struggle, a war going on between them, throughout the whole story.

    I think it was Smeagol that saved Middle Earth. Not Frodo, not Gandalf, not Aragorn, or any of the handsome, beautiful, powerful and/or good characters.

    No one else but ugly, tormented little smeagol.

    At the very last moment, when it came right down to it, Frodo choked. He claimed the ring as his own, and would have either become the new dark lord, or been defeated, thrown down, and become just another orc servant of Sauron.

    But Smeagol stepped up and got the job done.

    And I don't believe it was an accident that he fell into the crack of Doom.
    All through the novel Tolkien talks about how strong, and coordinated Gollum is, able to climb down one of the trees in Lothlorien, even when he was captured, which is apparently no small feat. He was able to catch small fish with his bare hands. He was able to climb up and down the steep treacherous stiars of Cirth morgul(sp) with ease and no fear. This guy is good! Like a Circus De Soliel performer. Don't try to tell me at the last moment, after getting the thing most precious to him in his whole life, after being tortured mentally and physically to get it for a lifetime, he then messes it all up and trips to his death off of a cliff?

    Remember that this character is two people. One is Gollum, forged in darkness and despair, and under the power of the ring. And the other is Smeagol, the original hobbitt, not so different from Frodo, or Sam. Just a nice little hobbit who liked to fish and eat. There was a conflict between these two all through the story. a conflict between the personalities lower and higher parts, evil and good, selfishness, and selflessness.

    I believe that at the climactic moment, It was Gollum who fell. Gollum was so focused on the ring at that moment, that poor Smeagol was able to take control, and make them both fall. I think that he knew what he was doing and chose to do it. To save Middle Earth, or more likely on a personal level, to save his 'master', Frodo, who had been more kind to him then anyone else. He jumped to save himself. He did not fall.

    He did what Frodo would have done if he had as much courage. And he got no reward at all. Didn't get to go home to hobbiton, and live happily ever after. Didn't get to have little hobbit babies. Didn't get to ride on the big Fairy ship and sail into the undying lands. Nope. Poor Smeagol was just charcoal.

    So here on the liv tyler forum board, I raise a toast (cyber) to Smeagol, the unsung hero of LOTR.

    Your thoughts?
    FRODO CHOKED!
    P.S. I think it would be fun to have a t-shirt that reads.

    Smeagol saved Middle Earth! Frodo choked.
     
  18. keithnotis

    keithnotis New Member

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    oops. sorry I said this was the liv tyler forum board.
     
  19. isengard111

    isengard111 The Master Chief

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    My T-shirt would have a picture of Frodo, and underneith it would say "I ****ed up."
     
  20. Cjg

    Cjg New Member

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    Gollum and Smeagul were indeed two seperate personalities. But...They both wanted the ring. Gollum would do whatever it took to obtain the ring. Smeagul on the other hand didn't want to hurt anyone else. Gollum convinced Smeagul that Frodo betrayed him. And then Smeagul agreed to do what Gollum said and do whatever it took to get the ring from Frodo. So, in the end, Gollum/Smeagul was not a hero. He was a villian trying to get the ring for himself. He just happened to get himself tossed over the edge with the ring in his hand.