Gods retribution or opportunism?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by __________, Feb 12, 2009.

  1. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0
    God has an ideal and knows what is possible and because he loves us, wants what is best for us. Even when our issues make what is best for us impossible due to sin (which is simply defined as living apart from God) he makes the outrageous sacrifice of Christ to repair the bridges. That said, our freedom gives us the ability to choose or own path, do follow our own morality, to commit the sins we prefer, to reject or follow God to our choosing... even though those lives will effect others. Because he is God he has grace for us but does not wholly remove the penalties for sin. The real penalty for sin is basically giving us what we have been seeking. An eternity of life apart from Him.

    None of this is really about behavior. None of this is about cause and effect.

    Think of it like a marriage. If a man decides to marry a woman, and buys her from her father, forbids her to speak, marries her and takes her home... is that marriage going to be a loving relationship on either side? But if the man announces his love, woos her, chases her and sacrifices for her until the day she decides whether to do the same for him, it provides the foundation for the rest of the relationship. But the latter illustration gives her the choice to leave him and seek another.

    That is the point of the Gospels. God so loved us that he let us choose, and when our choice cause separation, he gave us an opportunity to choose again.

    Of course God knows what will happen, and in describing what he knows through the messengers in the Bible, it can sound like a predetermined path.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  2. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Where you want to live
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0
    I don't know if this is an accurate description of the discussion at hand. Or to me, in any case. First of all, I don't know what the marriage is supposed to represent? A relationship with God? Staying sin-free? Or is it about the topic at hand.
    Either you're trying to say that if God did have a pre-determined plan, she(and us) wouldn't have a choice in anything.
    But God doesn't chase after us, or woo us, or do anything for us. In fact, it seems to be the opposite. And people will constantly be chasing for answers and love and everything they want, but will never get an answer. All they have is their faith. One will be chasing for their entire lives, and only receive an answer when they're dead, if god exist. If he doesn't, well at least you wont be alive to regret wasting your time.

    Maybe when you say He and She, you mean God and Humanity. If that is the case, that isn't accurate as a relationship with god through faith is an individual choice.
     
  3. chimera_789

    chimera_789 Queen of Air and Darkness

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    43
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    Ratings:
    +43 / 0 / -0
    Ok, then:

    Please explain how that quote from the article starting this thread does not mean what I described in my previous post?
     
  4. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0
    Im redefining the conversation. Understanding the intent God declares is necessary for a foundation. The relationship with God is the point, especially as heaven is basically an eternal relationship with God.

    Im saying predetermined plan is clearly the wrong way to look at it. Why create beings with free will if you could just as easily create mindless robots to fulfill your goals?
    God created everything, created the sandbox that you work and play in every day. He made the people you love and who love you. He communicates through those people and the world. He makes his message known through people and through specific people he chooses as his prophets. His message is known throughout the world. Just because you arent convinced doesnt mean he isnt trying. And the fact that he doesnt declare himself directly and personally to you and everyone gives everyone the freedom to doubt. It would be hard to deny Christ and God if you met them every week and they worked miracles all the time. Faith became a necessity after the fall (from original sin). Original sin came when god was in direct communication with people on Earth.

    Wooing also involves the Holy Spirit which can encourage. This again is not a violation of free will, but a subtle encouraging to do whatever is in God's will. Why is it that people are so quick to think all bad things that happen to them are God and the simple good things that happen every day are not? That last raise you got, the chance circumstance that you met your wife, the people you met in your life that meant a lot to you... is it complete chance that you are where you are... or have you had encouragement along the way? Not to take away the fact that those people chose their actions... but I dont think it is entirely due to their good hearted nature that they were kind in those moments.

    He and she are common descriptors in the New Testament for God/Christ and the church. Marriage is also common. The church is repeatedly referred to as 'the bride of Christ'. (and the church is any Christian believer, not any specific unified doctrinal body)
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  5. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0
    Like I said in an earlier post, removing protection is not the same as punishing just like allowing a maturing teen to face penalties for their actions to allow them an opportunity to learn discipline isnt punishment.

    Im not saying the guy is right. But that isnt even the point. This is a Christian pastor who is informing people they arent following Christ. If the people dont want to follow Christ, why get so upset that God removes his protection? They want their cake and want to eat it too. If they dont believe, why worry about criticism or judgment? The reality is the guilt they feel is triggered by the criticism.
     
  6. clouded_perception

    clouded_perception clouded_perception

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,871
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +49 / 0 / -0

    Who is feeling guilty? I find it more offensive that somebody would presume to twist a tragedy to fit their personal agenda. I don't see how guilt is part of the equation.
     
  7. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Where you want to live
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0
    Okay, I see your point.
    Now I understand your point clearly. Alright then.
    Alright, well I'll just tell you know, don't use But if the man announces his love, woos her, chases her and sacrifices for her until the day she decides whether to do the same for him, it provides the foundation for the rest of the relationship. But the latter illustration gives her the choice to leave him and seek another.
    As an example. Mainly because many people don't feel God has been doing anything for them at all(like me). That is why I suspected you were using He, god, wooed and chased her, humanity, until the point where she, humanity, returned those affections. The only time and period I imagine such a point was when Jesus sacrificed himself and people began pledging themselves as christains.

    Anyway, it isn't relevant, just discussing semantics.
     
  8. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0
    Judging motives is a legalistic approach and often attacking with legalism comes as an attempt to cover feeling attacked on a personal weakness. However I did jump to conclusions (legalism is a personal issue of mine especially since it is taught so well in so many churches) I didnt mean to make any accusations.
     
  9. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0
    I understand. People are going to see the relationship however they see it personally. Im describing the relationship how I see it.
     
  10. EstuansInterius

    EstuansInterius Ira vehementi

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Maryland
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    Natural disasters will always happen. Someone will always point to the sky and explain to us that it's because society isn't respecting his or her imaginary friend. I think it's BS. The ancient Romans blamed catastrophes on the Christians. The Nazis blamed things on the Jews. Phelps (not the swimmer) blames stuff on gay people. It's simply stupid.

    And since you're all talking about free will again, I'll again point out that it doesn't add up. And it's very silly to say that God's plan is free will. That's not a plan. You're just playing with words to try to win an argument.

    And really people... Anyone can point to a random occurrence and say, "It's because God willed it," or better yet, "It's because Jupiter is visible in the northern hemisphere." Well.... I suppose we can't disprove it, but it doesn't make a bit of sense, and it certainly is impossible to prove. Whether than accepting anything that cannot be disproven, as so many religious people/astrologists do, the intelligent person accepts it because it is proven, or, for reasons of practicality, accepts it because it makes sense, seems to flow from logic, or is supported by other evidence. Religion doesn't fit into any of those later categories.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2009
  11. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0
    The world is full of things that yesterday were unproven and tomorrow will be accepted as fact. There are even things that have been 'proven' that have been later discarded. Your practicality, logic, evidence and intelligence are as flawed as everything else.
     
  12. Killbot608

    Killbot608 prototype killing machine

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I'm Omnipresent
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -0
    There's no way to really tell, you can believe what you want but there will always be someone who believes otherwise, it could be gods work but I doubt that he'd get this uptight about politics. I for one believe in the power of god (I was healed at grapevine :) ) but I think that they're saying this to get the law against abortion reinstated so that even the people who don't follow their faith will live by their rules which is totally messed up.
     
  13. EstuansInterius

    EstuansInterius Ira vehementi

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Maryland
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    lol... sorry if I find that a really weak rebuttal.

    I completely agree with you!
     
  14. edinayks

    edinayks New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    sharpiecentral
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0
    I believe in spiritism, and this can be defined (by my beliefs) as;
    The foundation of Spiritism is the non-existence of God.
    Spiritists do not worship God, they worship Their Divine Loved Ones; all those Souls that have given Themselves to the service of others over the ages, who have reversed the instinct of life and put themselves last, putting the needs of the society, the community, and their family before their own material needs and desires.
    Spiritists believe that it is these Blessed Ones who watch over them, who hear their prayers, and send forth Their servants to guide and teach Their Children, to keep them from harming themselves, and, others.
    This is what differs Spiritists from other religions that believe in Spirit Communication, as most others still tend to believe in some sort of Eternal Being.
    Our word for God, el (EE-la) in the small case means 'Evil, all that is not good, that improper to do.' In the large case, or capital, as you would say, it means 'Dictator, tyrant, king, queen.' Any ruler who has absolute power over their people.
     
  15. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0
    Is your position that logic is infallible or that it doesnt matter if logic is flawed?
     
  16. EstuansInterius

    EstuansInterius Ira vehementi

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Maryland
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    The former... but, I stress that human logic is not infallible. That may sound confusing, but what I mean is that pure logic is infallible, but sometimes humans fall short of that, or have trouble wrapping their minds around it.
     
  17. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -0
    I dont argue with that. So because all known logic is a human attempt to apply it (with available information), all logic has two flaws. 1) The imperfections of the person and 2) the limit of known data. So to ever take something as whole truth is to take a leap of faith in both the what is actually known and how it is interpreted.
     
  18. Killbot608

    Killbot608 prototype killing machine

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,305
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I'm Omnipresent
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -0
    and isn't religion just one big ass leap 'o' faith?