God and magic (The occult from the Christian approach)

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Gil-Galad_360, Nov 24, 2006.

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  1. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    That's right and I don't believe in magical fairy creatures either, or crosses in holy water... Padmé and I are more logical... We're not going to be fooled by blind faith... Unlike some... We prefer to be sensible in these cases...
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You don't know about real magic.Haven't you ever heard about black magic?Summoning of demons,levitation above the ground?And other freaky things happening?I've hard and read of countless stories involving real magic although I try to avoid it because it freaks me out.
     
  3. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well at the moment Padmé and me are laughing our asses off, cause the things you read, we have read too... and it mostly scares little children away, not adult people... If you really believe things like that, then I'm not surprised about your religious opinions as well...
    There's no such thing as real magic... It's time to get back to reality, my friend...
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Ok then I guess things that have happened or have been happening here and in other places,stories that I've heard from people I know or not and things that I have read that have happened here don't count just because you and Padme thing they're fairy-tales?

    Maybe I could use that phrase here that they say that the Devil's biggest achievement is to convince man he doesn't exist.

    I could sit down and tell you some things that I've heard or read that happened but what's the point really?You and your girlfriend are gonna laugh and not care.So why would I bother...
     
  5. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    You get people who don't believe we have landed on the moon yet, that it was fake... If you are going down the path where you believe whatever you hear or read, be my guest... And probably whatever you say that you believe we will laugh at, cause we never have met anyone before who though as ridiculous as you do... We have heard of such people, but we have never known any! It's quite facinating for us lol
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    It's really so nice when you insult me right on my face.Makes everyone else see what kind of a person you are.

    Right,so just because you don't believe everything you hear does that mean it's not true?

    I'm not that naive to believe everything I hear.But only and totally believing in science and what you can prove is stupid.There are things you can't prove with science.Does that mean they don't exist?Or do you think man is the most superior being in the universe?
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, that would mean there's something like white magic?

    Problem is that a lot of people claim things, say things, talk about things, but no one can show it directly, proof it. Yes, I have heared people talk, but this is mostly easily debuffed.

    Demonology is a quite interesting study, finding it's roots far back in the dark ages, but beginning a peak around the 15'th century or so. I have always felt that demonology has at least something to do with the desire to rise above or diverge from the catholic church(es). This is, not entirely coincidentally, also the age of alchemy, which sort of does the same. However, the studies done in both directions are amateuristic and immature. It never yielded anything, other then coincidental discoveries from Newton, Paracelsus and the likes. There have been quite some volumes of interest on demonology, which, at the current state of science, make for quite funny literature. Give the dictionairre infernal a chance, for instance.

    I think your fear for the supernatural prevents you from finding out truth, Foi.
     
  8. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I completely agree!
     
  9. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Hay - Foin - there is another this thread besides anakin! ;)
    lets hear some tales -
     
  10. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Well, I am not willing to say that there is no such thing as "magic". Do I believe every Tom, Dick and Harry about it. Hell no. I know that supernatural things happen. And maybe eventually can be explained through science.
    I personally have witnessed supernatural events. Im not talking about religious stuff at all.
    Did I have a camcorder or camera with me then? No. So can I offer proof? No. All I have is my memory of the events. Im not looking to convince anyone, believe me, cool, dont believe me...dont care.

    Is it evil? Well one case sure felt it. But other than that...no.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Years ago in Athens there was a gathering of some sort.I don't remember what and where exactly,I think it was in Athens.There were some men in that gathering or party or whatever it was who told everybody they could summon the devil(that story was told by a girl who was there in a day program).The devil appeared on a mirror having a most horrible and terrifying look as the girl told the people in the show and everybody present at the party panicked.The ones who summoned him could not send him away and in the end someone through a glass on the mirror and it broke.Many of the people who were present,women if I remember correctly,had to start psychotherapies etc to get over it.

    A friend of mine from Athens,female when she had come to Thessaloniki once and we met and we were discussing various stuff,told me about a friend she had(or a guy she knew)who was performing some rituals.One time after he performed a ritual,he went to the mirror(to wash his hands or face or something I guess)and when he looked himself in the mirror he said "You look so gorgeous!" and the mirror....replied to him "So what?".The guy freaked out.

    There's a story of a boy from Thibet that I know that it's true because I've heard or read about it from different people(the existence of this boy and its abilities).So there was a boy called George,greek boy.His parents who were living abroad had given him to Thibetian monks to be raised.The boy was tought by the monks and in a tender age he had mastered all the arts they tought him and he had reached the last degree,the one of "perfect mage"(or wizard or sorcerer if you want).He was perfect in martial arts and could perform various things using magic like levitate chairs,tables,dishes,change the weather(Marco Polo had also said in his chronicle that the people of those areas there can change the weather and similar things like the ones described above)and summon demons with the greatest of them being Lucifer.

    The boy then left to travel around the world and know about the other religions.He studied many religions and in the end he heard about Orthodox Christianity,somebody had told him that Christians "eat babies and drink their blood" or something like that.Confusing the Holy Communion with something different.George wanted to know more about Orthodoxy.Something that happened once was this:He was somewhere performing to some people.He could move dishes,chairs and levitate in front of people and everyone was astonished,there was a cleric though(orthodox monk or priest)who wasn't impressed so George asked him "Why aren't you applauding like the others?Can you do the same?" and the cleric said "No,but I can make you not to be able to do them."And he gave him his cross to wear and told him to "fly".George tried to levitate once,twice...three times.Nothing.

    He also went to Jerusalem,to the Holy Sepulchre I think,he summoned the devil and asked him to open the Tomb of Jesus.He asked him what he saw and the devil was yelling "I'm burning,i'm burning" and left.

    This boy then went to Mount Athos,the monastic community in Greece.And many people heard and saw him and got to know him.The Devil had too much influence on him.He appeared to him once and demanded that he throws away the crosses and other religious symbols and George refused,then the devil beat him literally.And he still kept bothering him,making him yawn or feel sleepy or make weird grimaces during the religious services etc.

    I'm sure many of you will laugh,but there are really so many testimonies and stories of various people here that talk about dark magic.There's even a place in Mount Athos were demons come sometimes at night and make a fuss outside the monks cells.Pilgrimers(I think some Russian journalists too)have been there and witnesed that too.
     
  12. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    You recounted a myth, Foi. I mean, I like the story, but it has the distinct whiff of "produced" around it.

    So there is this "boy", (what is his age, at this point?) who was raised by Tibetan monks, which I would assume to be Buddhistic or Bön, which is slightly likelier. Now, I am not a specialist, but from what I know, there are very few ranks in either, other then things like master, pupil and things like that. There is Shamanism in those areas, but I believe such gifts are traditionally inherited (incarnated) and not taught.

    But what stands out is the Christian morale of the story. For some reason, the onhearers arfe to believe that the "knowledge" from whatever form of Buddhism is demonic. That's what makes it smell like a fraud.

    Still, who is the boy "George"? Do you have an article (preferrably in English) on him? Have you ever searched for studies trying to debuff his story? When was this? Is he still alive? Does he still preform his miracles? What "devil"?

    Mass hysteria? Fabricated? An unlucky gathering of latent psychiatric patients?

    OK, that would be classed as either hysteria or phychosis straight away. That has nothing to do with whatever kind of magic you adhere to it.
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Like Alchemist said,I can't prove to you that it exists and you can't prove to me that it doesn't exist.These are just some stories out of the countless other ones,that I with my poor english tried to explain here.

    About this boy,I'm trying to find a text in english but I can't find anything right now.

    I knew you would laugh about all that,I just can't explain it better.But anyway,I'm telling you there are countless stories about black magic here.
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Here's something I found in English about this George boy:


    If you do not know who Elder Paisios is i recommend doing some research. We have met.

    An excerpt from the forthcoming book "The Life of Elder Paisios" by Elder Isaac - published by Uncut Mountain Press


    George from Tibet

    George, a young man of 16 or 17, came to Mount Athos (the Holy Mountain) and went around to the monasteries. From the age of three, his parents put him in a Buddhist monastery in Tibet. He progressed far in yoga, became a perfect magician, could call whatever demon he wished. He had a black belt and knew karate perfectly. With the power of Satan, he gave exhibitions that made a great impression. He hit large rocks with his hand and they shattered like walnuts. He could read closed books. He broke hazelnuts in his palm, tossed away the shells, and the nuts remained stuck in his hand.

    Some monks brought George to the elder so he could help him. He asked the elder what powers he had and what he could do. He answered that he himself had no power at all and that all power is of God.

    George, wanting to demonstrate his power, concentrated his gaze on a large rock that was in the distance and the rock shattered. Then the elder made the sign of the cross over a small rock and told him to shatter that as well. He concentrated, did his magic, but he didn't succeed in shattering it. Then he began to tremble, and the satanic powers, which he thought he controlled, being unable to shatter the rock, turned against him and hurled him to the other bank of the river. The elder picked him up in a miserable state.

    "Another time," recounted the elder, "while we were talking, suddenly he stood up, grabbed me by the hands and turned me around backwards. 'If he can, let Hatzifendis come and free you,' he said to me. I felt it was like blasphemy. I moved my hands a little like this and he was jerked back. Then in response, he jumped up high and went to kick me with his foot, but his foot stopped near my face as if it hit an invisible barrier! God protected me.

    "At night, I kept him and he slept in my cell. The demons dragged him down into the pit and thrashed him for his failure. In the morning, in a bad state, traumatized, full of thorns and dirt, he confessed: 'Satan thrashed me because I couldn't beat you.'"

    He convinced George to bring him his magic books and he burned them.

    The elder kept him near him for a little while and helped him, as long as he obeyed. He wanted to learn if he is baptized and, in fact, he found out what church he had been baptized in. George, shaken by the power and the grace of the elder, desired to become a monk, but he could not.

    The elder used George's case to show how large is the delusion of those who think that all religions are the same, all believe in the same God, and that there is no difference between Tibetan monks and Orthodox monks.


    (some guy on the net translated the text in english)
     
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, it still sounds like a legend to me. Especially what happened to the boy after (I mean, he should have stood out, right?), and the lack of a timeframe make me think that this was made up as some sort of moral story. I'll try to track some other things on this lad later, he interests me.


    Well, I trully believe that demonology can be debuffed by simply trying. Black magic has a low-entry level, becuase it was designed (yes, designed) to be able to be practiced by "the normal people", as opposed from the clergy involved in catholicism.

    Recreating situations in which "strange things" took place offers a possibility to disprove. Or proof. I have studied some ancient scripts on demonology, but, so far, no result :)
    Besides, most protocols mirror those of praire, rather then invocation. There are invocation techniques, asking a demon to come forth and make himself known, but I haven't heared of any demon doing so in a controlled environment. Maybe that's against their errr... protocol :p

    The Tibetan boy offers something else, that is more of the legendary kind. These cases are interesting, but from my experience, they are easily debuffed by simple research to the facts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2007
  16. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I know that the story with this boy called George is true because I've read about other people testifying about it or mentioning him in other books about Father Paisios's life and generally from what I remember I've heard or read it from other people as well.

    There's also this thing about that place in Mount Athos where demons go sometimes and disturb the monks but they go when the monks pray if I remember well.I'll try to find some information about it in english on the net.
     
  18. Padmé

    Padmé Mrs Cascador

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    I'll go a step further, I think people like to grasp on to supernatural elements, such as ghosts, spirits and so forth, cause at the end of the day it is a comforting thought isn't it. That our 'spirit' can live on. People like the idea of ghosts for that reason, it's another strand of the 'afterlife'. Again it's the bedtime story for adults isn't it. Makes them able to cope with the struggles of life by 'knowing' they have life eternal to look forward to lol

    Again magic, of any name or kind, is a misrepresentation of something that is indeed very real. Just because people perform some rituals does not equate to it as being 'real' magic. People thousands of years ago worshiped volcanoes because they were not understood, the power of it. Now we understand them. The concept of 'magic' in the first place came from humans' inability to understand what was around them.

    A good example in voodoo is the 'zombie', we all know of them. Where did it come from? Well in Africa there is a plant/ flower which causes 'death like' symptoms. So there were many cases of at the wakes, these people 'coming back to life', but being mentally gone, not there. And they would even resort to biting, attacking for an aparent no reason. But in actuality all that happened, is that the motors of the body were shut down by the plant's effect so badly that the brain was ultimately damaged and so they came back as 'living dead'. Also in these same cases of that plant accidentally being digested, bodies would be dug up from the ground, revealing that inside the coffin there were scratch markings that the person had still been alive etc That is where that 'magical/ supernatural' theme of zombies come from. It's a very real side effect and answered.
     
  19. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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  20. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Yeah sure a religious site... They WANT to believe in magic, cause if they can explain that there is magic aka the supernatural, they think they can explain the existance of God... or at least the possibility of it...
     
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