Glorfindel v. balrog??

Discussion in 'Books' started by Scrinlord, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    he was reincarnared very soon after and was tutored by the maiar in such an degree that he became almost like them, very powerful and even mightier than in the 1st age.

    this is about what is stated in one of the history of middle earth books by jrr and christopher tolkien, I don't remember which one but I'll quote it one of these days if any of you is interested.
     
  2. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    This is one of those debates that has no end to it. Just like the argument over whether or not Balrogs had wings. Glorfindel was slain by a Balrog after the fall of Gondolin. Then he reappears in LoTR. If you look into it far enough I don't think it ever says that it is the same Glorfindel.

    Was he reincarnated, probably, what is the likelyhood his parents would give him the same name he died with?
     
  3. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    not true, JRR did write about is re-incarnation and his living with the maiar. I'll look it up for ya all.
     
  4. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    He was released from the halls of mandos in his own body and send back to middle-earth presumably somewhere during the second age.
     
  5. mormegil

    mormegil Art House Member

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    well its in the history of middle earth 12 the peoples of middle earth where it takes up the glorfindel issue.
     
  6. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    Thank ya Mormegil. now I won't have to bother searching.
     
  7. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    From EoA

    With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person?

    The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death.

    These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.

    Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    I guess he could have been the same one, but that was not considered until after LoTR was written.
     
  8. mormegil

    mormegil Art House Member

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    nice, if you also look at history of me 7 the return of the shadow there is a part in it where it says while in rivendale the hobbits hear of glorfindel and his time gondolin. so it must have been farely early that tolkien was toying with the idea of making them the same character.
     
  9. javelin98

    javelin98 does anyone read these?

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    I love threads like this -- who could kick who's hiney and whatnot. Reminds me of a great Simpsons vignette:

    Lenny: If you ask me, Muhammad Ali in his prime, was much better than anti-lock brakes.
    Carl: Yeah, but what about Johnny Mathis versus diet pepsi?
    Moe: Oh, I cannot listen to this again!
     
  10. Shinagani

    Shinagani New Member

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    Okay well in the notes on FOG in the BOLT2 Christopher mentions that Tolkien's version of the Balrogs in BOLT and LOTR differed greatly. Both in power and design, but I've never read him mentioning how many Balrogs there were, but either way they're pretty darn strong.

    Actually no, when the defense of Gondolin was beaten back to the King's square, at the last moment the King's Guard comes and hews among the defenders, and they push the enemy back slay 40 Balrogs, and push a firedrake into the King's Fountain. Now those weren't normal elves but they weren't nearly as powerful as say Tuor, or Ecthelion. And there are Elves who have slayed a Balrog and lived to tell about it.
     
  11. Tilion

    Tilion Was never a

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    Are the two Glorfindels the same... It depends on why you want to know. If you've read the HoME parts like several others here it's clear that at the writing of LotR Tolkien himself did not see them as the same. The part in HoME XII (chapter Last Writings) that speaks of this shows very nicely how all sorts of problems arose later on for Tolkien when trying to fit it all together and make a bit more sense of it.

    I recently had a discussion about the White Council and who might have been in it. One person claimed that Glorfindel should be in it because he is the one that slew a Balrog. In this case he was very wrong. At the time of the writing of the white council Tolkien didn't see the two as one and the same but as seperate elves. Therefore the reason for the inclusion my discussion partner gave was false. In thát aspect the Glorfindels were NOT the same. Other situations might be thought of where it is different. It's all about context. But saying they are the same or saying they are not just like that is wrong.
     
  12. mormegil

    mormegil Art House Member

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    Shinangi, where do you get your info? ill be honest, i heard of only twelve balrogs form someone i found to be very knowledgeable in another forum. he had said that it was another issue like that of glorfindel that tolkien went back and forth on but finally in a letter decided there to be just a few number of balrogs. is this description of the fall of gondolin in one of the histories books? its tuff to pin down things like this cause tolkien went back and forth a lot of many issues, but if you could site some references i would appreciate it.
     
  13. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    hey javelin98, I used to sell xbox's and I had a guy ask me if an Xbox was better than Kings Dominion (a paramount theme park). Of course, being in sales I said yeah.
     
  14. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    Not tryin' to be a party pooper here, but can you guys continue this discussion in the general gaming section?

    Thanks.
     
  15. isengard111

    isengard111 The Master Chief

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    And here I am thinking that Morgoth had a huge ****in' army of Balrogs.

    What a great army, population 12. :)
     
  16. Falagar

    Falagar Death

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    Actually, according to a note in Morgoth's Ring there were at most seven Balrogs...but it varied much.
     
  17. isengard111

    isengard111 The Master Chief

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    Population 7.
    It's a good thing they're Maiar.
     
  18. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    If there were only seven that only leaves a few unknown (unnamed) Balrogs.
    Ecthelion slays Gothmog
    Glorfindel slays one
    Gandalf slays one..
    leves four... If anone else in the first age killed any that means the Moria balrog was the last or next to last of his kind. Could this be why there arent any mentioned defending the Black Gates? Or since Sauron wasnt Ainur he didnt have power over them. Is that ever mentioned in HoME? Or if any survived to the 4th Age?
     
  19. isengard111

    isengard111 The Master Chief

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    Since Sauron was 2nd in command, I assumed he could order the Balrogs around.
    I assume the Valar killed some, and maybe there are a few still buried, waiting to be awaken...
     
  20. Aenónar

    Aenónar Elf of Arda Tauréndor

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    but... In the BoLT, it's a massive number of Balrogs that gets slayed, the mole clan slayed alot of Balrogs,as did Ecthellion and Tuor.... etc... ??? whta's this 7 number then???
     
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