Glorfindel v. balrog??

Discussion in 'Books' started by Scrinlord, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. Scrinlord

    Scrinlord Dark Lord of Guppies

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    I was just wondering if anyone could answere a question I have been pondering:

    In the LOTR, Gandalf fights the Balrog, but he dies doing so. Gandalf is one of the Mair, which would be some of the more powerful beings of middle earth, but nontheless, he was killed in defeating the Balrog.

    But in the Sil. It talks of Glorfindel fighting several Balrogs, and killing them, even though he also died. I was just wondering if anyone had any idea how it was possible for an elf to fight a balrog if a mair could not do it without dying.

    Or I might be completely wrong, if that is the case, please correct whatever part of this I am screwed up on.
     
  2. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    Glorfindel wasn't the only one : both Tuor and ecthelion slew a big lot of Balrogs ( book of lost tales part II ) and Rog killed even more.

    but, to answer your question: Glorfindel was a warrior, and a mighty
    one at that. Balrogs were originally Maiar but lost their potential powers when they turned their back on the other Valar and Maiar.
    I think the Balrogs were just monsters, very bulked up and mighty monsters, but not really godlike anymore.
    that's what happened to Morgoth too, he lost his 'godliness' and
    powers ( a great deal of them, but not all) and was bound to Arda when he turned evil.

    Gandalf, on the other hand, was not sent to middle-earth as a warrior. His powers were different. He was sent to middle-earth to unite the world of men against Sauron. In that he was very, very powerful. He could ofcourse fight ( but no better than any man could) and use magic ( in which he was very powerfull, even in battle) if he wanted to but that was not the prime purpose of him being there.
     
  3. Glorfy_of_Imladris

    Glorfy_of_Imladris Mysterious Glorfy

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    I agree with Finrod. Gandalf's magical abilities were of a different kind, and although he's a powerfull warrior, he isn't equally skilled to one of the greatest Elves, who didn't know anything else then fighting... for Glorfindel had to defend himself and others during whole his life in Middle-earth.
     
  4. waenlotien

    waenlotien Healer/ Magicuser

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    I think Gandalf dying was a part of his transformation. Even Galadriel said his part is not yet done (or something along those ines) He had to transforn from grey to white to complete that which he was destined to do
     
  5. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    I recall Glorf. killing 1 balrog, but that is not real important I guess. As Finrod says, there were others who slew multiple balrogs in the BoLT. I would keep 2 things in mind when considering this.

    #1 - The BoLT was published after JRRT's death, they were essentially a rough draft of what later became the Sil. Some of the stories an facts in these books might not align exactly with what ended up in the Sil.

    #2 - Whether or not Balrog's retain any of their "god like" abilities, Gandalf was sent to middle earth in the body of a frail old man. We can't expect him to be himself in this form.
     
  6. Shinagani

    Shinagani New Member

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    You also have to remember another interesting fact that one of my friends brought up. Most likely the weapons and armor of the Elves were much more powerful then than those of the Third Age(especially those of Gondolin), I mean look at the Black Sword (Gurthang?) that Tuor wielded. But then again Gandalf was wielding Glamdring, the sword of Turgon, Lord of Gondolin. However he wasn't armored at all. Basically what I'm trying to say is 1rst Age Elves were amazing warriors, with awesome equipment, which made a huge difference.
     
  7. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    and also remember that gandalf fought his balrog on a extremely high peak of a mountain where there was little air and there was blowing ice and snow and the temperature must have been at least -21 celsius
     
  8. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    I agree on the fact that the 1st age elves were individually probably mightier that the third age elves. My theory is that's because they came fresh out of the light of the two trees(they, unlike the most of the third age elves, were born in Valinor) and were not tired of middle-earth yet.

    BTW you might want to change the name with tuor with Turin in your above post in order to have the right wielder of Gurthang :nono: :D
     
  9. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    good point finrod
     
  10. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    Thanx byz. we seem to agree on most things don't we?
     
  11. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    yes odd isnt it
     
  12. Asgath

    Asgath Heavy-metal dwarf

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    No better than any man? Gandalf could pwn Aragorn in combat. Even if his main goal was to unite men against Sauron, he could still fight! He was a Maiar, so I think he would have been just that bit better than Mortal man...

    You are indeed right, wouldnt his fireball be sort of negated?:p I think he would have done abit of hack and slash here...
     
  13. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    I don't think Gandalf could best Aragorn in sword to sword combat.
     
  14. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    me neither in less of course he used magic thats a different story:D
     
  15. Asgath

    Asgath Heavy-metal dwarf

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    Gandalf was not allowed to show his true power, he fought a Balrog, he killed it, likely with quite abit of sword play!
    I dont think Aragorn could kill (or hurt) a Balrog, even if Gandalf didnt use magic, he could probs hurt the Balrog more, He is practically stronger than Aragorn, he could likely best any man, and indeed most Elves of the first age, apart from maybe that of Elrond, Celeborn (He could just look at you and his gaze would kill you:p), Glorfindel and any other of the more Elder Elves...
     
  16. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    I think Gandalf's fighting power was mainly in his magic, he used it quite a lot in Moria.
     
  17. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    yeah but asgath your forgetting that the istari were in the bodies of frail old men (like my self:D) and gandalf did show his power once in a while like in edoras for example
     
  18. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    right, we don't say Gandalf couldn't fight at all. but it's just not that
    likely that he could best a well trained, tall, strong man or elf. (or even a dwarf)
     
  19. Asgath

    Asgath Heavy-metal dwarf

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    Byz Warrior - Yeah, but bloody hard frail old men

    Finrod - I think he quite easily best many a man (strong man as u say) Even many an Elf. And even a Dwarf. Although I dont understand why you said: Or even a Dwarf, for Dwarves are generally much better fighters than men anyway...
     
  20. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    I love differences of opinions, that's what makes discussions as nice as they are. I still think it's highly unlikely that Gandalf could perform feats of arms better than, for example, Aragorn or Boromir
    could.

    but fair enough: Dwarves are indeed extremely capable
    to stand their grounds and it's most likely that a dwarf could
    beat a man if they got involved in a fight (with the exeption of
    Numenorians/Dunedain)
     
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