Gender and Equality

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by S.J. Faerlind, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Of course, you are right.

    But I think the assumption that people live by this is quite erroneous. People, by and large, take themselves as their most important point of reference. Taking other people into consideration is mostly the right thing to do - but usually also the first victim in battle....

    Hm - I never said mine was any better than yours, SJ. I'd say they are about equal.... Doesn't mean I agree with yours ;)

    There is, however, a right interpretation. It lies with the author, in this case Sparrow.

    Hah. Duly noted.

    I don't think that the best part about debate is convincing each other. I think it's mostly about formulating your opinion. And listening to how other people formulate theirs. It gives a unique possibility to see how people observe life and deal with what they find. You get to observe actual thought processes here. From other people. And the blade cuts on two sides: debate forces people to stop and think before they make another post. Although no one would admit it, most avid debaters I've seen here have softened up over time.

    You know, I learned a few things through the few posts here - incidentally mostly not about gender issues. It's interesting so far :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  2. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    *laughs*
    I would never have said that... I would have said "I agree" instead.

    That has been my experience as well for the most part.

    Taking other people into consideration can be a very hard thing to do and yes, it has been my experience that people who do often suffer consequences because of doing that.



    That's totally OK with me. I never expected you to. :)

    I disagree. Sparrow's is the intended interpretation. In my opinion there is no "right" interpretation.


    100% agreement on this part :) I don't think people spend enough time considering important issues and watching their thought processes IS fascinating!

    Oh? Do tell for that will be fascinating too!
     
  3. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    I'm not so convinced that a bunch of burly blokes participating in societally glorified, corporate sponsored thuggery over a leather, prolate spheroid should be taken as seriously as it is. Could that not be seen by some as just as frivolous an endeavour as cheerleading? So, in that sense, perhaps they are more equal than you think, and women really aren't debasing themselves by being cheerleaders.

    I honestly could not have put this better myself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  4. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't mind that she's girly. I kind of love it.

    If you think that about me, you hav developed a 100% wrong opinion. It's your own and that's all well and good, but you are wrong.


    If you're some kind of psych student, I'd change majors :D


    Where I am coming from is having watched the last 4 years where my very cute daughter has been told on meeting new people, almost without fail, the first words that come out of people's mouths are "Aren't you pretty/cute?" To the extent now that she will introduce herself to strangers without he opening line of "Look how cute I am!" She sure as shit didn't learn that from her mother or I. We aren't shy on complementing her appearance, but we focus mainly on complementing good kind behaviour, being intelligent, staying fit and healthy etc. But everywhere we look, everything is pink and frilly and gender stereotyped, and even though my wife and I are not in any way like that, my daughter has absorbed it from the world around her.

    When my daughter says "Look how pretty I am" or "I don't want to wear that, it's not pretty enough" it makes my skin crawl. She is NOT confident in herself to that extent, in fact she has very sensitive feelings. She is seeking confirmation and making herself subservient to the opinions of others. It's great to take care of your appearance, but I believe this is different and more concerning.

    I adore feminine women, but those who are genuinely in charge of their femininity, not those who use it as a tool or weapon to get what they want. I hope my daughter will grow to be confident enough that she will never fall under the sway of a man who is a smooth talker and flatters her to get what he wants, because those men are the sorts that end up controlling your life. I've seen it happen with friends and I hope my daughter doesn't go down that path.

    I know it's early days yet but I see her heading down a path that we didn't create, and hopefully we can guide her to what we believe is a stronger way to live her life. I'm no ogre of a father. It's hard to be an ogre when you're wearing your daughter's fairy wings and you're both flying around the house flitter-fluttering :D And when we go and catch the Green Goblin, we all work together to get the job done, me with webs, her with magic, and my 2 year old son with a helpful *stomp* (what the?). I'm not against her being girly, but I'm concerned she's going to make herself a victim with some of her behaviours.


    Indeed :D


    I find it interesting that you equate stay at home parents as being a "lesser" supporting role. My wife is the front and centre of our home, she works way harder at home than I do at my office :)

    This bit of mental regurgitation in no way perfectly sums up what is going on in our house or lives, it's just a little window into our world.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  5. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    I wouldn't consider stay at home parents in a support role. It's only the future of their society and culture that they're tending to. No biggie.
     
  6. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Bologna.

    Cheerleaders are cheering on the performance of the boys, they are a frivolous part of the game.
    Competitive sports are one of the many things that get children ready for the real thing, competition in the workplace, competition for a mate, learning to excel as part of a team, dealing with losing, understanding how to relate to others in a tight social structure, gaining confidence in their physical abilities... sports as well as all kinds of other activities get kids ready for life as an adult. Too often those activities that girls participate in are no more than practice sessions for playing second fiddle to males.
     
  7. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    And that makes my skin crawl. Doesnt matter how hard parents try, other people are always gonna put ideas into the kids head, make them insecure or make them fit in to the mould that society wants them to.. No one should have to think about what they look.. especially not a kid. They're supposed to grow, learn and have fun. Not wonder if they need to go on a diet or wonder why people didn't tell them they were pretty in that particular shirt..
     
  8. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    Well considering that girls usually don't get to play with the boys, not often you hear about the girlsteam or mix the teams up.. Usually people don't want to watch girls do something, unless they can be objectified while doing it. Usually means they run around in close to nothing only showing off the goods and need to look good while doing it. Doesn't mean they are worth less or should have less respect because of that.
     
  9. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Big deal. Some people will still just see it as grown men chasing after a silly, little ball and nothing more. What is deemed as a worthy activity is often very much in the eye of the beholder.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  10. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I think if you read the conversation Tur and I had yesterday you'll understand my position on what I'm about to say now ;):
    My interpretation is certainly my own but in my opinion that doesn't make it wrong. It only makes it different than the one you wanted me to have. I presented an extreme interpretation to illustrate a point: be careful what you say because it can have unintended effects and those effects can be damaging.
    If the way I made my point was a little harsh and bruised your feelings or Sparrow's then I do apologize for that: unintended effects you know..... we all do it ;)

    I'm thinking that I probably did bruise your feelings since you posted this... again: apologies and no, *laughs* I'm neither a student or a psychologist. You don't need to be a psychologist to say what you heard in someone else's message.

    My daughter does the same thing and we don't even have TV in the house for just that reason: too much exposure to advertising that influences the kids in negative ways in my opinion. I agree, you can't prevent them from absorbing messages you don't want them to have because they're everywhere. Whenever she makes a remark about how pretty she is I remind her that it's being beautiful on the inside that counts: that people are most beautiful when they're nice to other people. I feel that doesn't demean her wish to be feminine but reminds her that there are more important things in life at the same time. I think it's great that you point out and praise your daughter for the other stuff: good behaviour, intelligence etc.

    hahahah XD
    Oh please can we have a pic of that? Fairy wings and all? :)


    I think you guys are missing my point that a so-called "support role" is not a lesser one ;) I believe I also made the point that running a household and looking after kids is a big job. I work part-time in my professional career and am a stay-at-home parent for the rest of the week so I know what it's like to play both roles.
     
  11. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Let me clarify my rather long winder previous post - my daughter is starting to measure her worth as a person based upon her appearance as the main deciding factor.

    On the subject of cheerleading, I would much rather go cheer my daughter on as SHE plays her own sport, rather than have her spending her time "cheering on the boys." I know cheerleading is basically gymnastics so it's a good workout, but I would rather have my daughter on the field kicking goals than waving pom poms.

    That's okay, I'm an Australian male, we don't have feelings :D
     
  12. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Speak for yourself, mate. I have feelings, and I ain't afraid to show 'em! Blub... :D
     
  13. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    And that's the problem with activities like cheerleading, I don't see it as a healthy way to build a young girl's confidence. When I was in my middle teens me and my best friend at the time coached a little girls soccer team because they couldn't find any parents who wanted to do it. Both our little sisters were on the team and they weren't going to be able to join the girls soccer league unless they had two coaches, so we volunteered. Let me tell you, we whipped them into shape and made the finals, only losing our last game.

    Given the chance and given proper guidance little girls can play soccer as well and better than little boys.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  14. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    ^^Of course they can!^^
    I don't think there's any difference between taking pride in a good performance whether you're a player in a team sport or a cheerleader. Personally I'm far more impressed with the athleticism of some of those cheerleaders throwing themselves around in the air than I am with what the football players do. They don't strike me as people who lack confidence in themselves or in their abilities.
    A quasi-related (and funny) anecdote: My son gave up soccer for gymnastics (which he tells me he likes better). Football seems like it's the big deal down in the US, but up here, it's hockey. The gymnastics club my son goes to sells t-shirts that say, "If gymnastics was easy, they would have called it hockey!" :D


    hahaha XD
    I guess you have to don fairy wings to have them then....? ;)
     
  15. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    If the grand sum total of cheerleading is that it gives girls a good gymnastic workout, well than fine... but welcome to another decade of role playing and girls/women having a subordinate position in society. And this goes back to what I've already pointed out, it's not so much what boys/men do to keep the status quo, it's girls/women who don't grasp the meaning of equality.
     
  16. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    Interesting article, I'll have to go through it more thoroughly some day when i have more time, but the thing that caught my eye is that all the numbers they are talking about.. are very very small, we are talking 0.x% here. Which in my opinion doesnt show that much in how our hormones give us preferences, they are so minor that it's easily changed with environmental influence.
     
  17. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I think that my biology predisposes me to having a drive to compete for my survival. Historically, the strongest, fastest and most aggressive people were more likely to run down the deer in the woods, beat up the competitors that sought to steal the best mates and kick their weaker counterparts out of the best caves to live in. Those who could compete were more likely to be the most successful. On the surface, that seems logical and I might be tempted to adopt such a philosophy. If I did ascribe to it I would view everyone's worth in terms of their ability to compete. By extension, I would judge anyone who accepted a support role as inferior because it implies they have an inability or unwillingness to compete for the front and centre position.

    I believe that philosophy is detrimental to humanity as a whole; especially in the modern world where there are so many people who have way more than they need for their survival. How many wars have been fought for territory or economic gain when the instigator already has much more than they need? Humanity now has the technology to annihilate ourselves and I believe that if we can't learn to live cooperatively, we could knock ourselves right back to where we began. That strikes me as a very bad idea.

    I accept that I have instincts for self preservation at the expense of others and that these are necessary for my survival should I ever find myself in a situation that threatens it. Since I have the luxury of not facing such a situation, I choose to use reason to override those instincts in favour of a different philosophy: one where cooperation with and consideration for others ensures everyone's survival. Since I choose that I must also believe that everyone`s contribution is valuable and that no-one has to prove their value or their equality by out-competing anyone else. By analogy: the machine will stop working if the cogs are removed from it, no matter how big or small the cogs are. That makes anyone who chooses a support role in society equal to anyone else in my eyes. It also means that I accept that it's just fine for someone to be to be "girlie" or "manly" or anything else that they want to be because I don't measure self-worth or equality by these things anyway. I sure don`t intend to let anybody teach my kids that their self-worth is dependent upon their preferences or in their ability to compete either.

    I have to disagree Sparrow that some girls/women don't grasp the meaning of equality. I think that not all concepts of equality are the same (no pun intended XD). Each person has to decide for themselves what their own concept of it is and that influences how they see the world and the other people in it.
     
  18. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    We're not going to annihilate ourselves, or anything so romantic as that, we're going to pollute the only world in the entire Universe that can support the human species until it can no longer support human life. Whatever our eventual demise, we are destine for extinction. Once the sun we revolve around begins to act up, that's it, the end of humanity.
     
  19. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    lmao
    You crack me up Sparrow. I hope you never change your propensity to tell it like you see it :)

    Let's hope we don't do either... I hate to think we could be back living in polluted caves when the sun blows up......:p
     
  20. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    It's what they don't teach you in school. :)

    Evolution is a dead end.