Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Tinuviel, Dec 4, 2003.
BTW- very thorough, Sky!
Oh no,look at the world these days.
What's so interesting about homosexuality?It's a sin,it's wrong!
These are merely thoughts, so please try not to presume anything about my views that would be considered hateful and whatnot...
What really gets me is that if something is going to be so hotly contested, than why can't it be wrong? - Hetero
What really gets me is that if something is going to be hotly contested, than why can't it be right? - Homo
One of my managers was gay, well he still is, but he's not my manager anymore....and well anyways, I had no problem with him personally, professionally, whatever, however I couldn't accept, or condone his lifestyle simply because it didn't sit well with me.
One of my later coworkers was also gay, and we talked about why, and he said he realized he was gay when he was in sixth grade, however a heterosexual lifestyle was something he was open to if the situation ever presented itself, just like he's open to the homosexual lifestyle. I asked him, "Does that mean you are bisexual?" He says, "No, I'm gay, but I don't hate on heterosexuals and would be willing to put myself in their shoes in order to better understand them."
These are two different people, but they had one thing in common...well two if you count their gayness...but neither of them had grown up with a father. My manager was raised by his mother in Vegas, and the coworker was raised by his grandmother. It seems that this trend is all too familiar, and this is why I have trouble buying the idea that homosexuals are born homosexual. I believe, that just like anybody...how they are raised effects their attitudes and personality. In all fairness, I'm sure I could have been raised gay.
I think that in the same way young impressionable girls are driven to promiscuity by the absence of a father figure, and having to compensate that desire with multiple men...would it be fair to assume that men without a father figure, most of whom are "fruity" and feminine, seek the same kind of approval/affection from other men? The same could apply with the many gay men who had militaristic fathers...there was no acceptance or fatherly affection with which they could get from their father, the one man in any boy's life who has a direct influence on him whether it be good or bad.
By the way, I've never met a gay man who was repulsed at the idea of doing a woman, and I've never met a gay man who was actually a "man", and I've never met a gay man who wasn't borderline psychopath emotional. They are men who exhibit female tendencies, and if that isn't borderline abnormal than I'm not sure what is.
As for gay tendencies in nature, I find that to be biased and misinterpreted. We can't realistically apply human nature/societal ideals to animals. They are not bound by our consciences, and ultimately despite any signs exhibiting homosexual behavior, nature will run its course the way it was intended regardless, and that is for procreation.
Oh my, I've said too much...btw, when in the world will I quit being a newbie?
What exactly do you mean by "I've never met a gay man who was actually a "man""??? And how many gay men do you know exactly? I know plenty who aren't "borderline psychopath emotional."
^^ Poor girl. Can't recognise her own...oops, that was too easy.... J/K hehe
But most you know wear tights and funny hats
Not that there is anything wrong with that....
They're not tights..they're breeches...and some straight guys wear them too
Sky look whos talking hehe
I've got a freind at school whos openly gay and he's picked on for it, I have never seen him wear tights.
Personally, not that many. I valet for several sections of downtown Dallas, and if you didn't know, Dallas has a very large gay population. I've had my share of getting hit on, butt grabbed, comments, and stuff like that so my familiarity with them is reasonable. However, in my several experiences at work involving gay guys, all of the gay guys were...how can I put this? Wimps? Now I'm not super-trendy sports jock who always gets the girl I'm the best guy there is type guy...I'm just a normal guy. I like to dress in a manner that says, "I'm a man", I like to act in a manner that says, "I'm a man", I talk in such a way that says, "I'm a man." A large majority of gay guys dress, act, talk in ways that say, "I'm gay." Not "I'm a gay man", or "I'm a man" but "I'm gay." and that's it. They are not "men" I'm sure that gay guys would probably get defensive about that, and with their lispy speech tell me how I'm wrong, and that they can be manly, and with a snap of their fingers tell me to recognize, and all I'd have to say is "So can a woman." So kudos to all you girls.
Speaking of natural tendencies...guys, egotistical or not, who see another guy that comes off as weak, errrr girly, or just doesn't project the confidence that a normal man should whether straight or gay will be looked down upon and ragged on. Gay guys usually bear the brunt of such tendencies since many of them behave in such a way that is feminine...and they wonder why they get picked on...?
As for borderline psychopath emotional? OH MAN. I've heard way too many gay "love" spats from way too many different gay dudes to disagree with myself on that one.
Weighing in late, so forgive the long post:
I despise any form of bigotry. Being half Aussie/half chinese I've experienced racism in my life, and I was brought up to believe that everyone is equal until they prove otherwise.
As for the "opinion du jour," only 30 years ago Aboriginals weren't allowed to vote in Australia. Looking back now, it disgusts me that discrimination was allowed on such an obvious, and Government-sanctioned, level. I see discrimination on the basis of sexual preference to be no different. How are we going to look back at the non-allowance of gay marriages in 30 years' time? Will our kids think that society was as backwards now as we think some aspects of the 60's.70's were?
I believe you are born gay, it's not a choice. Short of rebellious teenagers looking to alienate their families, who would choose to be gay? As others have said, why choose to be part of aminority group that's looked upon by many as a blight on humanity?
Of course, there are those people who do CHOOSE to live that lifestyle, maybe to experiment sexually, to broaden horizons, to annoy their family etc, but I don't class them as gay. Is that what the term "lipstick lesbian" means? Someone just "playing lesbian?"
I read a book by someone in the medical profession whose theory is that if a foetus gets the normal amount of hormones in the womb, it'll be normal/heterosexual. However, if a male foetus gets too much oestrogen, or a female foetus receives too much testosterone, they'll be gay. They'll be born into one body, but have a biological leaning towards the same gender.
Everything with humans on a biological level has to do with hormones. Pump a guy full of testosterone and he gets more aggressive, more muscular, develops more body hair - in short, he becomes "more manly." However, pump the same guy full of female hormones, and he'll become less aggressive, will develop man-boobs, and will take on more feminine traits. Hence why many lesbians seem "butch" and many gay men seem "fey." I'm not a scientist or medical professional, but it seems to make sense to me.
From the viewpoint of reproducing and increasing the human race, yes, homosexuality can be viewed as "wrong." If it doesn't produce a child, then what's the point? In pure terms of biology and reproduction, yeah, it's "wrong."
However, mother nature does not always produce "normal." People don't discriminate against those with MS, or diabetes, or
My point being - because it is (imo) something you're born with, I don't just tolerate it, I accept it.
And Urambo, go to Google and type in "gay animals." Here are just 3 articles on the first page:
http://www.gaypasg.org/Press Clippings/May 2003/Gay animals come out of the closet.htm
Many men who can't abide homosexuality find the actual act of homosexual/anal sex to be absolutely abhorrent. Why? Is it an affront to your masculinity? One of my female friends enjoys anal sex with her boyfriend. Is he "wrong" for having anal sex with his GIRLFRIEND? If so, why? If not, then why is it wrong for men to engage in anal sex with their BOYFRIENDS?
I was walking in the city with a study mate and we saw a gay couple walking hand in hand. Not making out, not wearing hot pants, they were dressed casually, just walking down the street. My friend made a "yuck" sound and wanted to bash them, which really surprised me because he was a nice enough guy. I just didn't get it! It's just 2 guys holding hands! What's the big deal?!?!
Mind you, he did grow up in the country, which seems to be much less tolerant of homosexuality, or anything different for that matter.
As for gay guys turning straight - how many married men, with kids, do you think are closet homosexuals, living a lie? Imagine the strength of character it would require to potentially lose your family, your friends, your job, just about everything, in order to be true to yourself? I can't begin to imagine it.
And let's not forget that Sir Ian McKellen, who played Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings movies, IS GAY! He is now an outspoken advocate of gay rights, but I think it took him until his 40's to come out publicly, or even privately. 40 years of hiding his true feelings because he was so afraid of how a narrow-minded society would react. Just try and imagine living with that self-loathing (his own words) for your whole life.
I find it disgusting that the gay boy scout leader was refused a job. Too many people associate "gay" with "paedophile." Yet from what I've heard, most sexual abuse happens within family circles, not from strange gay men who take advantage of young boys. Maybe we should abandon the priesthood? Are they all sexual deviants? No. I can't stand narrow-minded people.
I've got no problems with gay people. I can't say I know more than one, (the guy who runs my firetwirling group), and he's totally cool (and an awesome twirler!). He hugs everyone hello, including me, and it's nothing more than saying hello to a friend. I hug my friends hello as well. Now, if he tried to crack onto me, I wouldn't be cool with that. Just as if I tried cracking onto a girl who didn't like me, she wouldn't be cool with that either. I wouldn't go berserk, I'd just say "Sorry, not my thing."
Urambo, is your simple statement of "It's not wrong because I think it's wrong. It just is. My opinion doesn't matter" come from a religious point of view? It sounds like you didn't make the decision but someone else did, someone whose authority you would never think to question. The Bible says "Adam & Eve" not "Adam & Steve", right?
Well, I'm not religious at all, and I was brought up to make up my own mind, so I question most things.
P.S. And Sky, that mental image of you in a tongue suit on a Clitoral Pride Parade float is going to have me laughing for days
sadly, im kinda homophobic. if they arent acting gay, i can tolerate it, but if they start talkin about some guy's ass.....
To be honest i have a 30 yr old homosexual friend. I met him through my sis bcause they are practically best friends. I joke alot with him but nothing to explicet. I dont have any problems with gay men or women. People are the way they are, and i am ready to accept them as long as they are true to themselves as well as others. I accually was in a situation where i was playing a video game online, and there is a chat while you are playing. Allmost everyone there was say ing how that move was gay or how you shoot like a fagot(pardon). Then i told them that they were all saying those things because its just a cover up for there misinturpritance. Imidiatly they were all cursing at me and calling me names. I found it quite comical.
Mububban- I applaud your post, well said!
I can tolerant homosexuality, but I do not agree with it and I do not believe it is the right choice. In some ways, I view homosexualty as a mental disease. It's just not right. But I don't think you should hate someone for their ways or kill them. but it is still wrong in my mind.
As I am A Christian It says very clearly in the Bible that Homosexuality is Wrong. To somone who does not beleive in the Bible then this will have no baisis for them, I don't dislike Homosexuals in anyway but to me, I would still see it as Wrong. the only Problem I have however is that it seems that homosexuals are aloud to do some...rather explisit things just saying that's thier right. such as the Gay parade. That seems to go above free speach to me. also they can carry it like a torch. I know somone that would just go and say to everyone "I'm gay" all the time. so I'd say "I'm strait", after saying this 2-3 times he got mad thinking I was being against his homosexuality. while I was doing nothing but what he had been doing.
Not wanting to turn this into the religious debate thread but one of the things I dislike about religion and being told what to think, is that Hawkbat said something along the lines of (and I paraphrase) "...I don't dislike homosexuals in any way....but the bible says homosexuality is wrong..."
But I do agree that imho the Mardi Gras (we have them annually in Oz too) does more harm than good. People don't go to see a mature display of pride in people's sexuality. They go to see a cricus, a freak show, and it gives the nay-sayers and the religious and moral extremists ammunition to say "Gays are bad, just look at what they're wearing/not wearing/doing" etc.
I've got no problems with being proud of who and what you are, but I think overt displays of in-your-face sexuality of any kind do more harm than good if you're trying to convince people that you're just as normal as they are.
Like Hawkbat, I am also a Christian, but I totally disagree that being gay is something you are born with. Being gay is a choice, whether it be conscious choice or a subconscious choice, you still choose it. Not wanting to also turn this into a religious post/thread as I respect those who don't want to have religion preached to them, I just want to say, GOD wired the human body and mind to associate with the opposite sex, anything that changes that is your choice of free will, don't blame GOD for you being gay.
Studies will show that you will find one common thing among almost all gay people. That they were abused some time in there life, whether it be sexually, mentally, emotionally or even verbally. Most all gays choose to be gay because of something that happened to them that made them not like the opposite sex. For instance one time on Dr. Phil, one girl who wasn't much older then 13, told her parent she was a lesbian. By the end of the show it was discovered she wasn't really gay. She said that the reason why she started saying she was gay was because she didn't like boys, because she liked girls. She didn't like boys because she said they were always mean to her, they would call her names and make fun of her, she said she only found love in girls. This in turn made her call herself a lesbian, but she wasn't really a lesbian for she never even had sex before.
Another person that is gay is actually a very good friend of mine. After about 5 years of knowing him, I have come to find out that his catholic upbringing is what made him decide to become gay. He was also abused in the church from a priest. Because of this, he also hates all religion and despises it, and hates just bout anyone that is religious. It's hard for us to be friends sometimes because of me being Christian.
It doesn't take much to change someone into being gay. It is a temptation and is wrong. It's also called sodomy, that's also what the Israelites were doing at the time of the Ten Commandments while Moses was on the Mountain, and what got them wandering the earth for 40 years after that. It's also what created one of the worst plagues on this planet, Aids. I have nothing against people that are gay, but I am against them doing it. When I say that, that's because it is a choice. Anyone can decide not to do it, or to do it. It's the same as some one making a choice to commit murder, or to marry that person you love. We all make choices in life, and the people we fall in love with is also one of them. To say you can't help who you fall in love with is ridiculous. We all choose who we fall in love with. Love at first sight is lust not love. No one just falls in love and marries someone just because they are attracted to them (unless you are Britney Spears), it takes many meetings and weeks to get to know that person you chose before love comes. Lets not confuse love with lust. :humper:
That is an outright falsehood, and I challenge you to provide proof of these "studies".
While some gays may have been abused as a child, as many people who turned out straight have been, I daresay that you could say "most" let alone "almost all".
Separate names with a comma.