Gay Rights Poll/Debate

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Tinuviel, Dec 4, 2003.

?

Are you for gay rights?

  1. yes

    232 vote(s)
    68.4%
  2. no

    68 vote(s)
    20.1%
  3. yes and no

    39 vote(s)
    11.5%
  1. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I would suggest that you look over my previous posts, you would see that NOWHERE did I say that. I've always said SOME, which are the induviduals that bother me.

    I don't understand why you are getting accusatory with me in defense of your "funny" friends.
     
  2. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Is this different from some heterosexuals that bother you? What makes homosexuals worse?
     
  3. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    The topic here is whether in your view if homosexuality right or wrong. You are losing sight of the argument. I have always maintained that while homosexuality is in my opinion a biological condition and nothing WRONG with that, it cannot be helped. The only problem I have is the flagrant behaviour portrayed by SOME gays, and why (because I find the physical sexual aspects disgusting) and don't want to keep being reminded of it.

    But yes, at the moment some heteros are annoying me too.
     
  4. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Actually, I think that sexual behavior in general is more flagrantly protrayed than it was 20 years ago. I don't see it as a 'gay issue'. Our society has become hugely sexual, in hetro, bi, and gay communities. Heck, the raciest thing you's see on TV 15 years ago was Brooke Shields in a tight pair of Calvin Klein jeans. And now we have thongs for 3 year olds. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    True enough, and that may be why I am a little more annoyed with that type of behaviour now than I was 20 years ago.

    BTW, that Brooke Shields commercial was over 20 years ago. Congrats, you've just dated yourself....hehe:D
     
  6. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality


    You're still older....and won the vote for most senile! :p :banana:
     
  7. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Yeah, I just thought about it, she was 15 when that ad debuted, and is around 40 now. Wow.
     
  8. Kiernan

    Kiernan New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I really agree with you there, we do have an overly sexual society, but I don't think its a homosexual or heterosexual trend. As for 20 years ago... I wasn't exactly born yet, can't help you there :)
     
  9. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality


    Oh, I wasn't meanign to imply that I thought it was a hetro or homosexual trend, just a overall increase throughout all of society.
     
  10. asap

    asap New Member

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    About the public portrayal of sexuality (of any kind).

    I agree with those of you who noted how, over time, the ways of expressing and portraying sexuality have changed. I also think that resentment is a pretty natural reaction to those changes.

    However.

    Shockingly indecent and improper things have been introduced to the public on every decade of the last century. Most of those ideas and practices found unacceptable on the time of their appearance are now part of our culture, giving us more personal freedom and wider understanding of life.

    So...
     
  11. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Sorry, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that getting cornholed wil never be deemed acceptable by a hetero male.
     
  12. asap

    asap New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Yeah, being on the giving end is not popular among straight male population, too bad one can't say the same about the popularity of being the ''consumer'' of the mentioned service. :rolleyes: ;)

    (Nevermind, I agree with what you said. :))


    Actually, what I was trying earlier was to describe how certain movements and beliefs that are considered extremist will affect the entire community. It doesn't really mean that every one of those ideas will be adopted by the general public, but IMO they will still have a liberative affect on our way of thinking. For example, all the displays of gay sexuality will also spread the message that sexuality and its physical aspects are a natural part of life.

    Just trying to make more sense then in my last post... ;)
     
  13. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I think you mean that most hetro males aren't too keen about being on the *receiving* end(as in receiving the penis in the anus). At least I hope so, or my idea of what hetro male fetishes are needs readjusting. :humper:
     
  14. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I think I can speak for most hetero males that "receiving" is out, and "delivering", even to a female, is a matter of personal taste. Personally, it's not my bag.
     
  15. asap

    asap New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Tinuviel, that's what I meant. :)

    Skyainde: again I agree. I wasn't making (at least I wasn't trying to make) any generalisations about straight men. Just needed to bring it out that it is not as if any of the sexual habbits mentioned here are invented and practiced by only Evil Gay Corporation, although I'm sure that information wasn't new for any of you.
     
  16. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I dont personallly think that there is any problem with people being gay. I mean, if they want to live that life style, then kudos to them. I have a few guy friends that are gay, and they are just like everyone else *except a little fruity*. There is a stereo-type for gay men though. And shows like Queer Eye for the Straight guy make people think that all gays act like that... i like the show though. hehe
     
  17. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I am not having any problems whatsoever with homosexuality either. If that's what some people wanna do then they have my blessings. Heck, I got homosexual friends that are perfectly normal guys.
    I do, however, have a problem with the (relatively small) group of homosexuals that walk around on high heels, wear dresses and slam every single male they encounter on the butt together with some indecent offerings (highly exaggerated here but you get the point) but that's not really the point of discussion here as it is not their homosexuality I resent but their acting.
     
  18. Fincayra

    Fincayra New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    naww, i dont know what i think about homosexuality, but i do know that ignorance bothers me, and what other people think about it. im not talking about myself, cos i consider myself ignorant as well, but not to contradict myself, i think it's cheap of people to say another person is gay, when they have no idea whether or not they are. it frustrates me, especially when someone says that an inanimate object is gay (i.e: that music is gay, or that color is gay).
    it's none of anyone's business the sexual preference of someone else. my friend was accused of being homosexual and it really burned him becasue his only sin was liking fashion, shoes and women.
    tell me, is that homosexuality?
     
  19. Nerdanel

    Nerdanel [...The Wise...]

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    Re: Homosexuality

    First of all, it's not a "lifestyle" I hate that word.

    It's not a choice. It's not a "disorder".

    It just is. Some people find the men I am usually attracted to WRONG. They find them despicable, reprehensible, idiots, etc. because I teld to be attracted to "bad men" does that make me biologically different? Do I have a disorder?

    No.

    Homosexuality is NOT proven to be biological, or environmental.
    I can't say what it is exactly, but it's probably a little bit of both.
    Some people are just born gay.
    Others, sometimes the victims of sexual abuse for example, end up gay when they may not have been if they hadn't been abused.

    (That's just an example, not a generalisation.)

    But homosexuality is NOT about sex as so many people are ready to label it.
    It is primarily about love.
    Who we are drawn to in a romantic relationship.

    People are often ready to proclaim a male-on-male sex act as wrong, but if you asked those people if they felt love to be wrong most would probably say no.

    Sex is a wonderful thing, but in MOST loving, commited, lasting relationships it "...is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself." (To paraphrase Heinlien)

    Sex is how two people express and share their love with eachother, and homosexual sex is no different.

    Perhaps biologically, in the means of procreation, it is a "deviation" as someone put it...but only if you look at procreation and sexual relationships in black and white terms.

    There are cultures in this world that do not share our stigmatism of homosexual acts and relationships, and studies suggest that ancient humans weren't even engaging in monogamous relationships on a regular basis.

    It is believed that humans functioned much differently in the past. That one woman was sought after by many men in order to produce a child, but that they did not share a life-long monogamous relationship. In such a society homosexuality may have been prevalent due to a lack of societal preference for permanent heterosexual relationships.
    Later, when humans developed more in the way of tools, and were no longer nomadic, it became necessary to settle down in family units, which may be the source of what we today feel is humanity's drive towards monogamy and heterosexuality.

    The thing is, very few studies have been done into the origins of homosexuality, as it was not considered acceptable to delve into its origins until very recently.

    Even now, homosexuality in the media is kept decidedly heterosexual.
    Gay males are portrayed as stereotypical caricatures of what the heterosexual community expects or believes them to be.
    And even less stereotypical gay males in the media (Will from Will and Grace is LESS of a caricature than Jack from that same show, but a caricature nonetheless) are never depicted in an actual relationship on television.
    Will began the series having just left a relationship, and hasn't had a serious boyfriend since. Even when he IS dating somebody it's a very sterile relationship: Demonstrative affection is sparse, most of the episodes with Will dating contain VERY few scenes with his boyfriend in them, etc.
    The media wants to appear gay-friendly because it's in vogue, but at the same time sends the message that they aren't really as gay-friendly as they want people to think.

    Gay-Pride parades are often suggestive, but that is because of the repressive attitudes gays are expected to have.
    A Pride Parade isn't just about Pride, it's about a message that the gay community wants to send to the community that is neither accepting nor tolerant of them.
    The annual Seattle Pride Parade is no different. But if you ask them what they're marching for, you'll find that pride is a small part of it.
    Gays are expected, even by many people who supposedly accept them, to keep thier relationships to themselves.
    Straight boys and girls can suck face on any street corner and get, at worst, a "get a room!" from a few passersby.
    Gay couples don't have that luxury.
    When discussing their partners at a party a straight male may be able to get away with saying his girlfriend is a "demon in the sack" in the company of other males.
    When at the same party a gay male would be looked at with disgust for making the same comment about his boyfriend.
    Gay males in the media are expected to keep their relationships to themselves as well.
    Our society is at the point where we say "It's ok with us, just pretend it's not happening."
    We feign acceptance, but get offended or even disgusted when gays test that so-called acceptance.
    A Pride Parade often serves the purpose to show the straight community that gays exist, that whether they like it or not, they are here, they have sex, and they want the same rights straights enjoy.

    Until recently, it was nominally illegal for gay men to even be physically intimate in their own homes.
    Despite the fact that those laws weren't enforced, having a law on the books that sends the message that your personal expression of love with your partner is abhorrent is WRONG.
    Imagine how you would feel if you lived in a country where you were committing a crime every time you and your wife made love.
    Many gays will tell you that the laws didn't bother them in the first place because they were not enforced.
    Many will not.

    The fact that the ulitmate act of love and devotion between two consenting adults, regardless of their gender, could be a crime is preposterous.
    We wouldn't tolerate that if it were our rights that were being infringed upon, but many of us are perfectly happy to infringe on the rights of homosexuals everywhere.

    As for gay marriage, Bush has commented in recent months that gay marriage threatens the traditional American family unit.

    How? May I please ask how?
    If you give gays the chance to marry, to own property jointly, to have the SAME RIGHTS as straight married couples, how does that harm you?

    Are you afraid thousands of newly-married gays will storm your home and force your children to "learn" how to be homosexual?

    The truth is, it won't affect you at all.

    Somebody mentioned gay divorce. After we win the right to marry whom we please regardless of gender, there will inevitably be divorce. Gay relationships are NOT FUNDAMENTALLY different from any other relationship.
    Not all of them last. Many of them do. What's the big deal?
    Why is this any worse than straight divorce?

    Somebody said that gays marrying would cause more abuse of the system. Guy friends marrying so they can get a tax break, and amass wealth more easily.
    Right.
    Not only does that already happen with straight people, but it seems LESS likely to me that it will happen with gay people.
    There are sham marriages in our current system, true.
    But seeing the reaction most straight men have to homosexual relationships, what straight man would want people to believe he was married to a man?


    Let me ask you a question.

    Is it wrong for me to hold a man in my arms, to love him, to caress him, to comfort him when he's sad, and let me comfort him, to kiss his tears away, to laugh with him, to stay up late gazing into eachothers eyes, to tell him I love him, to share my whole self with him?

    Most of you would say no. (If you're very religious, assume we're married and then answer the question.)

    What then makes it wrong if that man is a woman, I love her, caress her, comfort her when she's sad, and let her comfort me, to kiss away her tears, to laugh with her, to gaze into her eyes, to tell her how much I love her, to share my whole self with her, body mind and soul?

    In my mind there's only one answer to that question: Nothing.
     
  20. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    No, that's a sexual preference by type. Like if I was partial to Asians or blondes or skanks.
    Well, unless you're a twin and and you're attracted to your same-sex sibling umm...that would be biological...
    And that would be environmental AND a psychological disorder, which conflicts with your assertion that it isn't a disorder. I personally have a hard time agreeing with you that a traumatic situation can turn someone gay.
    That's a crock. I love my sons. I loved my Dad, I loved my father-in-law, grandfathers and I "love" my best friends. I NEVER once thought about them in a sexual way, never will, though I have hugged most of them at one time or another. What is this romance you're talking about? IT'S SEXUAL ATTRACTION. You need to face facts here. YOU"RE SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO THE SAME SEX! There's nothing wrong with that per se, but don't try to wrap it up in some kind of sacred BS aura. THAT'S why you're attracted to men. Are you attracted to masculine women? I would doubt it. IT'S THE SEX.
    Again, you're equating love and sex. The male-on-male sex act TO ME and most hetero males is DISGUSTING. If I had a love for my dog and decided to have sex with it, is that wrong? I guess it depends on who you ask, right? But I would pretty much assume that most (including myself) would agree that it's disgusting.
    Just like the majority of hetero sex, the majority of sex occurs outside of the long-term relationship. Of 17 partners I've had since I was 15, only 3 of them were what I would consider "long term".
    No, sex is what two people who are sexually attracted to each other do. I can have sex with someone I hate if I wanted to. Provided they don't talk to me.
    Again, the beastiality analogy. If it isn't about procreation then I'm ok right? I mean, if my dog doesn't run away it's a consentual relationship...:rolleyes:
    There are cultures that have harsher views on homosexuality. And we're talking about homosexuality, not monogamy, as I'm sure you can agree that not all relationships on either side are always monogamous. Of course, just like most animals, monogamy is not a natural circumstance, it's cultural, whether based in religion or accepted morality.
    That I can agree with, but often played by actors who are gay. So who's at fault here?
    If the behaviour in these Parades aim for tolerance and understanding from heterosexual society, someone should be getting some socio-political advice.
    No, they're expected, like most heteros, to keep their sexual behaviour to themselves.
    If I was at a party, I generally wouldn't bring up sex in that sense unless I was undser the assumption that it was in hetero company. I don't want to hear about your sex life, not because I don't like you, but because the visual image DISGUSTS me.
    Gay males keep their relationships to themselves because they fear for their career opportinities. But if you look at the entertainment industry in general I think that you'd find that ther would be a disproportionately high percentage of gays in respect to the general population.
    "Let's not talk about it" is more accurate.
    To me, it was never acceptance, it's tolerance.
    Oh thanks, because before that I had no idea, I mean really? So exactly what rights are you denied? The right to marriage? Marriage is a religious institution that was adopted by the government which was formed on religious principal. I don't know why, in a day and age that heteros are moving away from marriage that homos need this.
    Cunnilingus and fellatio are both illegal in many places, so it IS a crime. These are laws that are religious in background. Does this stop me from having oral sex? Of course not. Maybe I should have a Cunnilinguist Pride Day so I get more acceptance.:rolleyes:
    So you talked yourself in a circle here. The homo act is illegal (specifically sodomy) but not enforced. So when was the last time two consenting gays were arrested for sodomy in the privacy of their own home/hotel room, where prostitution was not involved? NONE. So what rights are being violated? Sounds like a persecution complex to me.
    Not as much the family unit as tradional family values. Key word traditional seeing that you have a conservative government, the mandate it to resist change.
    I am not against gay marriage, but I do have reservations about benefits. The spousal benefits are in place to help a family that still usually even in this day, depends on a single income; while there is an extremely small of group of gays that choose to raise children, this could be catastrophic for business.
    No, I'm concerned that my employer would discontinue my benefits because it can't afford to pay for them, one any two people living together can become "spouses". I'm afraid that our National Pension that I paid into my whole life (almost $2000 a year now) won't be there because the fund will be drained because every gay can claim "survivor benefit" when he himself worked all his life with no burden of raising children.
    No, but I will watch with interest how the alimony picture unfolds. I system here in Canada is so anti-male, it will be interesting to see how that will work out.
    That's true. I just hope they make it as hard to get divorce for homos as heteros. Make it a "binding" commitment.
    No there isn't, but I'd probably laugh at your man for being such a wussy.

    I appreciate and value you putting forth your point of view, as a gay male. But I think that you as many gays miss what we as heteros have a problem with. Just like I wince when I see someone getting kicked in the nuts, I cringe when I picture two men having sex. You'll NEVER change that no matter how many Parades you have.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2004