Gay Rights Poll/Debate

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Tinuviel, Dec 4, 2003.

?

Are you for gay rights?

  1. yes

    232 vote(s)
    68.4%
  2. no

    68 vote(s)
    20.1%
  3. yes and no

    39 vote(s)
    11.5%
  1. Urambo Tauro

    Urambo Tauro Art House Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    As for now, we're just discussing if genetics prevent one from choosing against homosexuality. We'll get to the other stuff later.
    As is stands, the reports that I have researched thus far do not provide conclusive evidence in support of a "gay gene". (still looking) But even if such a gene did exist, is psychological duress the only way to overcome a genetic behavioral trait? Why or why not?



    My opinion still doesn't matter. This is bigger than my opinion.:)
     
  2. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality


    That's the first thing that I can agree on with you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2003
  3. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I have seen alot of presumption that the main reason for a human to seek sex is procreation, and that is just not true. Instinctually, women seek sex to bond, to share, and to define a relationship. Men seek sex for fulfillment, to 'stake their claim' so to speak, and show affection. Biologically, yes, both sexes seek sex to procreate. But, we, as humans, are multifaceted. It is not just biology. It is not just instinct or chemistry. It is a combination of the afore and much more. Humans are far more complex than man+woman=baby. And it seems if that is the basis of why homosexuality is wrong, then anyone couple who chooses to remain child free would be "wrong" too. After all, why would anyone do all of that rutting around and mussing up the covers for the pure fun of it all?!
     
  4. Urambo Tauro

    Urambo Tauro Art House Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    That's a good point. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with a man and woman who are married to each other to have sex (preferably in private, of course), whether or not a baby comes out of it.
    But since you changed the direction of this thread, does that mean we are done discussing whether or not homosexuality is genetic?



    My opinion still doesn't matter. This is bigger than my opinion.:)
     
  5. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Believe it or not, we can discuss several things at once on the same basic topic.
     
  6. Urambo Tauro

    Urambo Tauro Art House Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    That's right, Arwen. I just don't want anyone getting confused.



    My opinion still doesn't matter. This is bigger than my opinion.:)
     
  7. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality


    I didn't change the direction of the thread, except maybe to steer it back to it's original question. I didn't ask anyone if they believed that homosexuality is genetic, something that develops during a lifetime, or a choice. I simply created a forum for us to discuss our opinions on the subject of homosexuality and it acceptance here and in society.
     
  8. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    You know, I just have to take issue with this. I tried, I really did, to leave this alone, but alas, I can not. Your opinion does matter. It matters very much. It is your opinion, and opinion's of people who hold that same beliefs as you regarding homosexuals, that perpetuate the prejudice against the gay community. Your opinion adds to, and ignites, hatred, disgust, and intolerance towards people. That, simply, is just not okay. It is not okay to play part in passing judgement against a person without even knowing them. It is not okay to continue to degrade a person, all whilst using the God's word to justify your opinion. And, it is not okay for me to sit down, be quiet, and let it happen. Unless, and until, we as a society, can stop forcing our personal prejudices onto others, we are continuing a generation of disconnect and illwill. Imagine what our society would be like if every black person had to enter through the back door, if at all(no, this is NOT in reference to being gay), if our schools were segregated, if women were unable to own property or vote, if your mother or sister were property of her husband? That is unthinkable. That is what we are doing to homosexuals if we continue prejudice.
     
  9. asap

    asap New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Concerning the biological causes pre-determining individual's sexual identity: reading this discussion has reminded me of a study I once heard of. Please forgive the use of non-scientific terms.

    When you affect rats with some neurochemicals during their fetal stage, the rats that are born anatomically female will behave like males when reaching adulthood i.e. - will try copulate with other females etc. When studying the brains of the manipulated rats it was discovered that certain parts of their brain had developed distinct characteristics that were otherwise only found in male brain, thus triggering male's sexual instincts in a female.

    What's even more interesting: when studying the brains of human transsexuals the same regular abnormalities where found. So it seems that transsexuality, contrary to what was believed for a long time (''transsexuality is a willfully practiced perversion'' etc) is biologically determined before birth. Why I found this interesting was that since homosexualism as well has always been present in human society, not depending of the cultural circumstances, perhaps one day similar proof will be found that will support the theory that there is a ''gay gene''.

    Edit: so sorry, Tinuviel, seemed to have posted exactly in the opposite way you wanted this discussion to got to. Since you are the beginner of this thread - do you feel I should delete my post? Is it too far off the subject?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2003
  10. Urambo Tauro

    Urambo Tauro Art House Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    There's nothing wrong with that. No hard feelings.

    "Is homosexuality 'wrong' in your opinion? Why or why not?" was the original question. The only way I am straying from that is to find out why it is or is not wrong without being closed minded and stating only my opinion.
    My goal in tackling one point at a time was to use only facts, being as thorough and precise as possible without jumping around and confusing people. I hope that's okay. I'm not taking away anyone's freedom to post when I have no such authority to do so.

    I apologize for not elaborating on this. What I mean is that opinion does not influence something to be right or wrong. On the contrary, our opinions ought to agree with that which already is right and not with that which is wrong. This subject will and does boil down to a matter of right and wrong in spite of what people may think. Even me.

    I am not talking about judgement nor commiting an act thereof.

    By the way, I know that this is a very active discussion, but I don't expect to be in these forums for nearly 48 hours. I'll catch up when I get back. Please continue.



    This is bigger than my opinion.:)
     
  11. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I find your posts extemely judgemental, whether or not we agree or disagree, the statement you made in this quote suggests that you are passing judgement.

    Let me offer this view. God/nature did not intend people to be born with birth defects, yet some are. God/nature did not intend for us to grow up and become tatto'd and pierced, yet we do. I suppose that being born with 1 arm is a choice some people make as well, right?

    How can you, presumably a hedrosexual man, state an uneducated opinion on why someone may or may not be gay? From comments like "It's not my opinion, that's just the way it is" you apparently have no knowledge of the subject, with the exception of what your emotion leads you to believe.

    This type of irrational hatred leads only to destruction. An example would be a muslim (no offense to muslim's) a couple of thousand years ago deciding for one reason or another that all christians were evil. After festering this hatred, passing it down through generations, it became something uncontrolable. Now in the present day, the descendants of this origianl belief are considering it ok to fly planes into buildings full of inocent people. To these people "It's just right".

    You are free to whatever opinion you hold, but your hatred and discrimination will not lead to anything productive.
     
  12. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Yes, but most of those emotional feelings you describe are complimentary to the process of raising a child, as a human parent's time-investment is one of (if not the most) longest of all creatures. To form a instinctually safe bond and environment is important for a woman to raise the child, and for the man it is important to have a fierce territorial bond over the woman (or women), to protect them and their offspring. As for the rutting, and mussing, this is (according to studies) to create a closer pair bonding. (The BBC had a good documentary on human sexuality a while back, saw it on the Discovery channel, but at the moment its name escapes me.)

    There are many examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom, so you can't tell me that a male doberman tried to give the snausage in the rear of a male poodle it was because it was confused or because it was sexually abused as a puppy, no more than the cat I once had used to dry-hump the duvet because it's mother didn't love it. There has to be a biological root cause for this.

    Don't lose sight of the fact that man is an ANIMAL, and is subject to the same drives, instinctually, as any other. It's only our ability to thing and our morality of what is acceptable in society that keeps up in check.

    I'm 36 years old. Do you think that I don't notice a younger woman, say 15 or 20 or 25? Of course I do. I did when I was 15, or 20, or 25; so why not now? Does that mean I'd chase one? Of course not. Because I don't want to? Well, not in a manner of speaking. I know that it's socially not acceptable, case closed. The biological drive is still there, but I chose to ignore it.

    As for gays, I would presume the drive is and was always there. Whether or not they act on it would depend on the circumstance, and whether or not they feel it is socially acceptable to them.

    EDIT: I do want to make clear to anyone reading this that I hold no malice or ill will towards gays. I feel that that is the way they were born and that I accept them as such, as fellow human beings.

    However, I do want to point out, so there is no confusion, that the only real issue that I have is what I feel is improper behaviour, which is not limited to gays, but is expressed by certain gays. The "in your face" attitude that is almost like they're looking to start a fight. Hardly an avenue, if you ask me, to common acceptance...Sky
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2003
  13. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality


    Heavens, no! I do not mind in the least if you wish to discuss the orientation of homosexuality. I was just clarifying that, indeed, I did not change the direction of the thread as Urambo stated. Actually, I found your post to be quite thought provoking. :)
     
  14. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

     
  15. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Hmmmmmm....I think I said that.
    Yep, I did.I suppose this is my view warts and all....
    1. I feel that for the most part homosexuality is a genetic/biological condition,
    2. Gays and bis are who they are They should not be discriminated against, it's not a life choice.
    3. Although I believe it is a biological condition, I do not think it is a "normal" condition or something to be "celebrated" or shoved in other people's faces, mainly because
    4. I find the "homosexual sexual act" repulsive/repugnant. (And that is still an understatement)
    While what you do behind closed doors is your own business, you'll NEVER, EVER, EVER convince me in a BILLION years that a man reaming another man in the rear is OK, just like pedophilia, necrophilia and beastiality isn't OK either. Obviously, pedophilia is undesputably wrong. But the others? I suppose it depends on your level of morality and what you are willing to accept.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2003
  16. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Originally Posted by Skyanide
    I'll weigh in here with what may seem to be a hypocritical point of view, but here it is, nonetheless

    So, what, you expect me to read your *entire* post? ;) :rolleyes:
     
  17. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Just out of curiosity...do you feel the same way about lesbians?
     
  18. Tinuviel

    Tinuviel New Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    I was wondering the same thing Arwen.
     
  19. Lonearcher

    Lonearcher Nocturnal

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Skyanide, I agree with all 4 of your points above.

    As for Arwens question:

    My view is pretty much the same although perhaps a little more ambivalent, since I am male and I identify with the attraction to women. Though, unlike some guys, I do not find women who are attracted to other women exciting. As a straight male I must also admit to a certain amount of homophobia and therefore have more discomfort about the expression of sexuality by gay males.
     
  20. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Re: Homosexuality

    Do you mean a lesbian sexual act? While I am not as vehemently disgusted by the thought of two women going at it, I don't find it overly appealing -- unless "I was the meat in a 3 way sandwich".

    But I would be more than a little disgusted of walking in on two women "munching carpet". The only thing that I find titillating about lesbian imagery is if the women depicted were sexually attractive to me, in a sexually egoist manner (ie."I'd do her"); and not necessarily to each other.

    But as I said, I don't have an issue with gays or lesbians as people; regardless if I am repulsed by their sexual habits. I'd just rather not be slapped in the face with it at every turn, as if to say, "I'm right, you're wrong, you MUST accept it and like it".

    It brings to mind how other cultures feel about what I feel is sexually normal. I have no issues at all with hetero oral sex :banana: . To most Muslim and Caribbean cultures, this is abhorrent. Again, I get along fine with people from these other cultures, why not? Is it my job in life to convince them it's OK? Should I have a "Cunnilinguist Pride Day" Parade with a huge clitoral float complete with me dressed up in a huge tongue suit running around the float?

    How offended or mortified do you think they would be then? Or willing to accept my view then?
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2003