Gay Rights Poll/Debate

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Tinuviel, Dec 4, 2003.

?

Are you for gay rights?

  1. yes

    232 vote(s)
    68.4%
  2. no

    68 vote(s)
    20.1%
  3. yes and no

    39 vote(s)
    11.5%
  1. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Agreed, I'm raising my kids with the notion that people are different, and that's okay. It's not right or wrong, it's just different, as long as nobody is getting hurt. And ambivalence is also an important stepping stone to acceptance. Acceptance isn't the same thing as approval, but acceptance isn't disapproval. And that's what we're aiming for I suppose. Baby steps. Society is so damn slow to change and progress sometimes. I find it so hard to believe how few years ago that women couldn't vote or the civil rights movement took place etc. We tend to think of it as "ancient history" but it really wasn't at all.

    I've never had a problem with homosexuality, even as a kid or teenager. I've always had the basically wiccan attitude of "if it harms none, do as you will." Religious people will argue that it does indeed cause harm to the individual, but as I don't believe in sin I've never seen the problem with it. Never have, never will.
     
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  2. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    why can't there be "nobody pushes anybody's belief on anyone else, we all keep to ourselves, and don't blast each other with anything whether positive or negative advertisement"?
     
  3. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Because when one side starts the other must fight back for their integrity, if somebody is riding the fence either side would see them as wasted manpower that belittles their stance through inaction.
     
  4. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    sounds like a stupid view. sometimes people stay out of it because they just don't think it's something that needs going to war about.
     
  5. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Well, some people are passionate about things or are personally bound to topics of debate so brushing them off and their cause and even calling them stupid for asserting their stance and trying to get others to understand seems a bit crude. Some would consider there is a war already going on, and if you haven't picked a side or a stance in their favor you are their enemy as doing nothing for them is as good as impeding them.

    "There are many ways of going forward, but only one way of standing still"... and many more quotes give reason to this sentiment.
     
  6. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Many good points made here but if everyone is battling each other all the time over their respective stances then it feels like no one is stopping to just look and appreciate one another as human beings. That's what turned my mind around on homosexuals. Not education. Not someone's militant stance in favour of gay people. It was simply getting to know someone in my life who is gay and seeing and understanding that they were just like me. I do sometimes wonder if as a society we all need to dial down the aggressive manoeuvring so that by standing still and really getting to know one another we can really come to a better appreciation of one another as people.

    Just my two cents.
     
  7. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Eph you are a great guy but that is too idealistic. Not everybody knows a homosexual person they can connect with so instead they get their perceptions from news outlets with agendas that force them to judge before they know anything firsthand. Because of this the only way the other side can be heard is if they have just as much ferocity or else they will be drowned out by the inverse propaganda.

    If everybody was calm and kept quiet about gay rights there would be no gay rights movement at all. Social systems in place would halt any movement and just circulate archetypes of people to defame gays and pad their doctrines they use to prohibit homosexuality.
     
  8. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    I would rather have a gay rights movement too. Someone has to speak up on behalf of a group of people who just want to be treated the same as everyone else, and sometimes the only way to do that is to push a little.

    However, my problem is when it goes beyond a little pushing, and becomes an outright culture war. With all of this, everyone is so entrenched in their respective sides that NO ONE is listening to anyone else at all. No actual fruitful dialogue is being entered into. Just a lot of sound and fury because the warring parties have "right" and "reason" on their side. Human nature rarely curbs itself enough to actually shut up and listen to what others might have to say in order to get an appreciation for where they might be coming from... to see if some common ground can be reached, to see if some trust and unity can be built from there. Instead, people get caught up in their moral self righteousness, never let that go, and the whole thing just gets uglier and uglier.

    Of course, it can be argued that it already got ugly a long, long time ago, and that's true. And I think that's something that NEEDS to be addressed. However, if no one genuinely wants to communicate and if all anyone wants to do is make sure that their outlook is the only one that stands, and that it stands on the ashes of other people's outlooks, then that isn't true dialogue. And if there's no true dialogue happening then we can't expect that any of this will ever get better. At the end of the day it's just war.

    I think you're right though, Yuan. I am too idealistic for my own good. I've been called naive many times before and been too easily dismissed because of it (not that I'm saying that's what you're doing here). I guess I just don't want to lose hope that there's some way that we can all learn to get along. I know we can't but I can still dream.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  9. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    I'm idealistic about different things so I get where you are coming from, if everybody was idealistic enough to halt the debate in the case of reason that would be great but right now the major force resisting homosexual rights is an ancient institution that governs every detail about western society down to how people justify their existence.

    You can't really reason with it, or alter it unless you want to demean the faithful which oversteps different boundaries especially because, like I said it is how people justify their existence, saying one thing in the doctrine is wrong could insinuate there are other things wrong with it and that would escalate to the possibility of questioning how somebody justifies their existence, trying to force a life crisis on them which is a terrible thing to do to somebody.

    But then on the other hand there is a minority party that is being harshly judged and has been for a long time who aren't given the benefit of the doubt simply because their existence has already been branded immoral.

    So neither side can reason and neither side can win with the other side unscathed. The whole thing is a tragedy for somebody any way it is cut.
     
  10. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Yeah, I actually have to agree with you there. And, yes, it is a tragedy... the whole lot of it.

    I look forward to the day that minorities of any description will never be put in a position where they have to justify their existence, and majorities don't abuse that balance of power by trying to rub out anybody they happen not to like. There are no good, valid reasons - religious, rationalistic, or otherwise - to be discriminating against anyone for anything as far as I'm concerned. None whatsoever.
     
  11. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    I find it hilarious that some religious people think being gay can cause harm to the individual, when it's been proven that any homosexual who has been put through those Christian "anti-gay" treatments have ended up scarred for life, depressed, often resorting to suicide etc. Yet those who are left alone by religion can live long, happy and normal lives like everyone else. The only thing causing harm to gay people is religion.
     
  12. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Homosexual Christians might disagree with you there. ;)

    But that aside, I totally get what you're saying here, and to some extent that is true. But I wouldn't characterise it as religion doing the harming, it's people using religion to make their hatred or dislike of certain groups of people seem perfectly okay and acceptable (which it's not).
     
  13. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    It all depends on how you define and follow your deity. To a degree you can almost logic out how a deity would behave or some people just say that a deity would never do such and such and deviate from the standard definition.

    My family is Catholic but politically liberal to the point where that often overpowers the written will of God for example. Funny story, my father actually had no idea about the Catholic stance on homosexuality, he thought the Papacy was fine with it.
     
  14. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    Well yeah of course there are Christians who don't care, and Christians who are gay. There was a gay festival in Melbourne recently and one of the things on the program was a church service for homosexuals. But I'm talking about the bigger picture, the Christians who still believe homosexuals can be cured, that it's a disease.
     
  15. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Ha ha. That's actually pretty cool. If only more Catholic/Christian/whatever else kind of people were a bit more "mistaken" about stuff like that!

    Yes, I agree. That is a problem. It's those people who need to come around to the reality of what homosexuality actually is, that it is not a disease or even a sin.
     
  16. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid it's not only christians who believe it's a disease or not normal, or part of our natural state.

    There's been some folks even here on the forum who are atheists that believe evolution and homosexuality don't make sense together. Homosexuality is natural. It's in our biology and is an outcome of nature for some people... that is they are born gay. Though I'm not gay, that same biology exists in me, only to a different degree and amplitude.
     
  17. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Eph, it is a sin, you cannot get around that as it is blatant text. It may not seem to be an issue to you, but it is very clearly stated that it is in all three Abrahamic faiths. I doubt that a mistranslation of that magnitude had been made.
     
  18. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Fair point, Dreamy, but homosexual Christians may beg to differ on that interpretation.
     
  19. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    They can have fun trying, there isn't anything to interpret though.

    er, are we talking about the people or the act? That changes quite a bit. You can have a homosexual orientation or leaning and be a Christian, yes. But even so you would do so under the realization that the acts of homosexuality are condemned by scripture. They are forgivable as with most every sin is, but it would be a struggle nontheless.
     
  20. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Haven't sins been deemed archaic before as new religions branched off? Like the consumption of certain meats on certain days or the consumption of certain meats at all? While the logic at the time of banning the eating of meats that if weren't cooked properly would cause death was sound then society has developed to shed light on the sin and the true reason for why it is was branded that way.

    Perhaps homosexuality was deemed a sin then as maintaining a population was more of a struggle because of disease and such, while now the mass human population only grows looping around the original intent of defining it as a sin.

    That and also the argument, why would God create other animals that practice homosexuality if homosexuality is a sin, why would many examples of sin including cannibalism/murder done by other creatures be part of his great creation. Through this logic I see the definition of homosexuality as sinful being more questionable.