Forgotten Realms vs Lord of the Rings vs Warhammer

Discussion in 'Polls' started by azuren82, Oct 4, 2007.

?

Your fave out of the three...

  1. Lord of the Rings

    6 vote(s)
    26.1%
  2. Forgotten Realms

    9 vote(s)
    39.1%
  3. Warhammer

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  4. Can I say all three rox?

    7 vote(s)
    30.4%
  1. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Vote for your fave fantasy series out of the three... ok, for me, I would go for a so-called "draw" here cuz' I really dunno how to decide between three kick ass fantasy series. If I am to do a brief summary on why I like these three series with the same passion, it will be this:

    LOTR: IMO, I really like the way Tolkien portray his world. It's really freakin' detailed and the characters there are so well done...

    FR: I admit I'm a nut fan for Drizzt. But then again, the series really span out over individual characters for different books and that's what makes the series attractive. Meaning, you won't get to see Drizzt and co hogging every FR novel. There are other stories about other characters as well. (e.g. Elaith Craulnober, Jarlaxle, Artemis Entreri, Liriel Baenre, etc) Basically, I think that's the charm of FR... Ok, I know LOTR did this as well if you considered the other Tolkien series as well, but IMO, FR's the series...

    WH: I admit I haven't seen the novels yet, but I do really go through the WH Games-Workshop site at certain times and I really applaude the makers big time. The world was an attractive one with different factions together and I really like the Wood Elves like no tomorrow mainly because out of the three elven races, they're the ones who defied stereotype logic. Trust the makers to put them in the mould that screams "anti-hero!" And yeah, who can forget Aenarion as well? Ridiculously powerful but charismatic character IMO... :D

    So what's your pick, guys? ;)
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I voted for all 3 but if LOTR didn't exist then the Forgotten Realms wouldn't exist and Warhammer wouldn't exist.But I like all 3 of them!:p

    What I don't like in LOTR is the too little action compared to the other two.
    What I don't like in the Forgotten Realms is the TOO MUCH magic.
    What I don't like in Warhammer is the Reinassance clothing in some units and the use of guns and cannons.
     
  3. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Oh yeah, I know about the last factor in the Brettonian and Empire thread lol! I've got not issue on that anyway, but to have the Empire units donning Reinassance suits just don't suit the whole fantasy setting that Warhammer is meant to be. The Knights of the Sacred Order are more easier on the eyes though given that I don't really see any moronic Reinassance touches there... btw, it really sucks to see that the Knights of the White Wolf not featuring in the special Empire Knights Orders section in the GW site for UK. I'm not even sure if the makers really remembered their existence at that point of time. Maybe they really remember the Whit Wolf Knights though given what I've seen in the Empire special army list for the Storm of Chaos campaign. Which led to me thinking why in the blue hell GW never made a special army list for the factions in the Nemesis Crown campaign especially when all the existing factions in WH (except for the Dogs of War) are involved... to see a special Wood Elves army list would be cool... :(

    And yeah, I know what you're talking about in the first sentence. Credit to Tolkien for making one of the best fantasy series ever and spawning another two of the very best in the business... :)
     
  4. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    I don't quite agree with Foinikas about the others not existing if LotR didn't exist. I believe such things would have arisen anyway, it just happened that LotR was a milestone of a developing genre as it were.

    Whilst I like the WH40k world, the Fantasy world is not "as" interesting to me. Sure there is some awesome stuff in it, but it's a bit well...lacking! I dunno, it just is >_<

    LotR is cool an all, but it seems a bit bland to me. Don't get me wrong. There are some awesomely spicy stuff like Balrog's and so forth, but overall a bit too bland.

    I like FR the best because it has a great balance of action, history, events and awesome characters. Again gotta disagree with Foi on the too much magic (my opinion ofc), because there's the correct amount of magic for it's context. FR is a huge world and was literally born from magic, so it's not unusual for there to be a lot of magic present.

    Oh yea Foi...the whole cannons and stuff goes in the "Steam Punk" element of WH Fantasy.
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Like you said Meteorain I like Warhammer 40,000 too.I understand all that you said.What I meant about LOTR is that generally it was Tolkien's work and mostly The Hobbit and after that LOTR that really gave a "shape" to a fantasy literature with more action and opened the way for more "organized" and epic fantasy works and worlds different from the fantasy literature of the old times.Big example of this was of course Warhammer,Warcraft,The Forgotten Realms and many other worlds that include Orcs,goblins,humans,elves,halflings or gnomes etc.

    Even the Star Wars universe has been influenced by fantasy literature up to a certain point and by Tolkien's works as well(I hear Anakin coming :D)

    I don't disagree with you about The Forgotten Realms Meteorain because although for me they use a lot of magic in that world.I still think the books(at least the Drizzt ones that I have)are very cool and let's not forget of course Baldur's Gate,Baldur's Gate 2,Icewind Dale,Icewind Dale 2,Neverwinter Nights,Neverwinter Nights 2 and their expansions all being the most amazing Role-Playing games for years now.I mean they are classical.They are the best.

    I believe that this post shouldn't be "LOTR vs Warhammer vs The Forgotten Realms" but perhaps something like "Warhammer or Warcraft?" since let's face it the Middle-Earth world was "created" far earlier than the other fantasy worlds that we are now talking about.

    I would also like to say that LOTR takes place in the most "realistic" fantasy world from those three and the other two are just more "free" and have many more fantasy elements in them as their creators added a lot more stuff to make them "cool" following a new age and current in the fantasy literature that was demanded by the 80s and 90s audience which was far more into the heroic and "cool" stuff rather than in the drama and serious stuff.And don't take me wrong I believe that Warhammer and The Forgotten Realms have dramd and plot but not in the level of LOTR but they have more action that LOTR without that meaning that LOTR is a boring stupid trilogy without action.
     
  6. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    To be fair....halflings, elves, gnomes, goblins and the sort were around before Tolkien lol
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Yes but Tolkien's works gathered them in a more let's say "organized" fantasy world.Do you understand what I mean?I don't know if I can explain this very well.
     
  8. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    He only set them into sides as was already percieved as "good and evil". Orcs, gobbo's being bad and Elves, Humans being good.

    He did help as an important milestone in the genre, but I still believe without him things would have developed in a similar manner to what we have now.
     
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Yes but many fantasy worlds were modelled after Tolkien's Middle-Earth for example Warhammer,Warcraft,The Forgotten Realms in a big part and many other worlds(I can't think of any specific names now but I've seen many other similar worlds like that in pc games or card games or movies or fantasy books).
     
  10. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    I don't quite thikn the Warhammer world is modelled after Tolkien's....I've seen the maps and settings.

    Warcraft again is quite different....same with Forgotten Realms lol. FR is quite indepth in itself and varies a fair bit from Middle-Earth.
     
  11. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    well as predicted by my greek friend I am here also to say that not every fantasy series is based on Tolkien's work as Met already said. Star Wars is based on the seven samurai and the hidden fortress...not on Tolkien's...but you believe whatever you want to believe cause there's not much point to argue about this.
     
  12. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    SW was influenced I believed, but not based. I think the correct word you're looking for is influenced Foi, not based (for FR, WH and WC)
     
  13. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Not true...George Lucas always credited his inspiration. The main thing he was inspired by was a book called "Hero with a thousand faces"...which was written in the fifties and details the history of fairy tale folklore and legend mythologies. It details the patterns in which all of these things including religions share. It speaks of the hero's Journey. How it is usually a young boy (Luke, Anakin and many other legends based on this idea) on a barren land or simple poor place...a boy of no significance who is destined to save the world. The book details the many things that are common in such a legend like the 'Merlin' character you would find in the tales of Arthur, a mentor figure who leads the hero to the path of greatness, often giving the hero a weapon of some sorts, ringing any bells? It also details the many paths these legends can take. It speaks of the Anti-Hero, which is what Anakin was, and the traditional hero which is Luke. If you read the book you can see George Lucas was heavily influenced.

    Check here, this is about the book and even tells of George Lucas' attachment and influence from it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

    The reason some think Star Wars is based on Tolkien is because it too follows the Hero's journey, which is Frodo. And you can also find Frodo's tale between the pages of this book I spoke of. The book even details how the story of Jesus also is in the 'Hero's Journey' Style, and it often references to it. It's an amazing book, very interesting. You can read here what some of the chapters and such are about, then you will see where Lucas' inspiration was from. As I said, he always credits his inspiration, whether it was Flash Gordon, Seven Samuari, The Hidden Fortress etc and he never once mentioned Tolkien, in fact, I don't think he's a fan at all of him from what I have heard. I don't see why people always want to say Star Wars is based on LOTRs, kinda strange like they want to give Tolkien the credit or something lol
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Wait wait don't get me wrong,Meteorain was right,I meant some influence from Tolkien exists in the Star Wars universe,I didn't specifically and only meant in the movies but in the comics as well.For example in in the Tales of the Jedi:The Golden Age of the Sith there is some amazing resemblance in the role of the Massasi as the "Orcs" of that Star Wars saga(the Massasi continued to play some role in the "bad guys" armies in the Sith War as well 1000 years late when they were under the command of Exar Kun).There's also the Dark Lord of the Sith who perhaps some people could resemble as Sauron...although I don't really think someone can say "oh look they took it from Tolkien" because I like to think as Star Wars in a different way from the other fantasy works but there is no doubt that the Star Wars universe has many fantasy elements and not only sci-fi stuff.

    Now what I wanted to say what about Meteorain's post:

    Here my friend I have to "disagree" or "correct" you perhaps.First of all Warhammer has the typical Humans,High Elves,Wood Elves,Orcs,Goblins,Ogres,Vampire Counts,Dwarves,halflings and Undead that the Tolkien universe has as well.You can also see many similar or identical names of villages,cities and other taken from Tolkien or influenced by Tolkien in the Warhammer world.They even have Ents and other creatures that played a big role in Tolkien.
    Games Workshop by the way,the company that has created Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 is the one who makes the LOTR miniatures as well!How's that? ;)

    Warcraft has more "liberties" concerning the Tolkien influence since it was created later than Warhammer.I think that Warcraft was first heavily influenced not only by Tolkien but also by Warhammer.As many of you already know we also have Humans and Orcs there and many other creatures similar to the previous fantasy worlds.But what Blizzard did was not only add many new races that played small part in the previous very famous and succesful fantasy worlds that were made into books or games,but also change the role of many races.For example the Goblins since Warcraft 3 are not essentially allied with the Orcs as has been the stereotype of theirs nor the Elves allied with humans and the separation between good humans and evil orcs little by little stopped to exist.Blizzard also added many new creatures that weren't present in the previous fantasy worlds.But still the influence from Tolkien in the world of Warcraft can be seen and considered as heavy,at least in the 2 first games.At least!

    Now as for The Forgotten Realms I think that by adding so many things through the years the influence they initially had from Tolkien can hardly be seen now and perhaps only a person new to fantasy stuff will go and tell you in his first D&D game "OH!Just like in Tolkien!OOOh they stole that from Tolkien!Ohhh just like in Middle-Earth!" etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2007
  15. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    Humans, Elves, Goblins, Ogres, Vampires, Undead, Dwarves and Halflings pre-date Tolkien.

    Although I don't really see Vampire Counts, and Undead in LotR. Not to mention the steam punk technology in the WH universe. Games Workshop meerely saw that LotR film was doing great and brought out minitures to get money...nothing else really.

    In the first Warcraft you only had Orcs vs Humans. Nothing special. Hardly Tolkien-esque. The situation was so different aswell.

    The presence of such creatures in all these does not satisfy that is has been based on Tolkien. Possibly slightly influenced but not all that much, since basic racial traits and sidings were determined before Tolkien. It's easy to say "oh this is Tolkien influenced" because he was one of the first too group such creatures into their sides and do what he did, but that doesn't mean that they actually were influenced by Tolkien. Most of the time they just take general traits and stuff from research into universal mythology on such creatures and apply the interesting parts.

    A new person to D&D will say "Oh just like Tolkien/LotR" due to the heavy exposure to LotR from the media. If someone who plays D&D shouts out something like that they obviously don't know all that much.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2007
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I still believe that Tolkien was the "spark" that ignited the interest for the creation of such fantasy worlds and the success of Tolkien's books was what started these fantasy worlds....and that AT LEAST originally ....AT LEAST...the Warhammer and Warcraft worlds were heavily influenced by Middle-Earth.I really wonder why you can't see this,it's obvious.Don't misunderstand what I said,because I didn't say that everything they have is in or is from Tolkien I did say that all these worlds took the freedom and inserted far too many other things but keeping the basic "Tolkien" stuff in them.

    And about the Vampire Counts and the Undead,the Vampire counts exist in the first book of the LOTR trilogy in the Fellowship of the Ring where the hobbits are captured and kept in the Vampire tombs just for a bit.And the Undead are the ones that are also seen in the movie,maybe considered as "ghosts" mostly in the movie but generally they were considered undead in the books if I'm not mistaken.
     
  17. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well when it comes to Expanded Universe...what you refer too, that's totally different...I'm not going to see the tales of EU were totally not inspired by LOTR...It could be...but yeah that's again EU and not written by George Lucas....The true SW stays the movies...and yeah I agree...I'm glad you see that Star Wars is more a fantasy tale rather than a sci-fiction tale. Cause I prefer that it is compared to fantasy rather than science-fiction, cause people look to the outer layer...they see space...spaceships and say "That's sci-fi"...totally wrong...SW is modern fantasy. Science-fiction depends more on technology...without it the story could not exist...but the story of SW could still exist without the technology. The modern look and the technology imo in SW just makes it more interesting.
     
  18. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I'm afraid Star Wars tends to be more science fiction rather than fantasy,but it sure has many elements of fantasy and let's not forget that many stories of Star Wars comics are more fantasy than sci-fi.I really love like I have stated many times in the past the Tales of the Jedi comics which I believe have amazing stories,characters and plot and they are generally very good.They blend the sci-fi and fantasy in a very good way,it reminds me of other similar fantasy worlds but I really love all the Tales of the Jedi stories.And it reminds us that once upon a time in the Star Wars universe there was more "magic" and swords rather than technology and lasers!And it makes us imagine that perhaps the Star Wars universe was even more fantasy looking once when Marka Ragnos the Dark Lord of the Sith had said:

    "Once we were all Jedi,brothers in the force!But the schism between the light side and the dark side...."blah blah and in the vision you could see ancient Jedi fighting with swords.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2008
  19. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    There's nothing obvious about those worlds being influenced by Tolkien :S

    The maps are different, the situtations are different. Creature relationships are different. The only real connection is that "oh they have the same creatures" and that's a tenous connection at best considering that those creatures existed pre-Tolkien.

    If it's so obvious, point it out to me, and then maybe I'll consider it. If you wanna take the first fantasy inspiration I wouldn't even say it was Tolkien but much before him, like the "Epic of Gilgamesh". This writing was probably one of the first that started defining Fantasy as the genre it is.

    All I believe is that Tolkien set the ball rolling for more fantasy type books to be written, and started taking it a new direction with more emphasis on certain creatures.
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I didn't say that Tolkien was the inspiration for all Fantasy but the basis and ispiration for the creation of these worlds Warhammer and Warcraft and in a part The Forgotten Realms.

    You can see that in Warhammer and Warcraft there are names of cities or villages or characters that are VERY similar to Tolkien's Quenya and Sindarin or generally the languages and terms used in Middle-Earth and there are some names that are identical!Not to mention all the Elvish style that is almost identical to the Tolkien elves culture(and so do the Dwarves) and the wide use of Greenskins(Orcs and goblins)as the evil races and main enemies of the forces of good.

    In the case of Warhammer there are more real world medieval influences concerning the world map and names of various places,but in Warcraft Tolkien influence is even more obvious if you look at the world map or just quest in World of Warcraft.

    Before the creation of The Forgotten Realms,Warhammer and Warcraft who wrote about Humans,Elves and Dwarves,Halflings and other creatures fighting in fantasy worlds against Orcs,goblins,Trolls and other evil forces for centuries(in an centuries-long conflict I mean)?

    Dwarves living in mountain halls,halflings mostly in their small villages and woods,High Elves living in their beautiful mystical ancient greek/roman mixed with medieval architecture style palaces,Wood Elves living in the woods(of course),humans having various kingdoms,Orcs and goblins being ugly war-loving bad guys who are divided in various tribes(most of the times)and usually fight with each other if they don't have a common enemy.You get to hear names like "Minas....something" "Kul..." something or "Dun..."something elven names ending in "allie" or "ande" or something quenya or sindarin-like and you feel familiar with the whole world because they are more or less similar to one another.Right?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2007
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