elves with beards

Discussion in 'Debates' started by finrod, Oct 8, 2003.

  1. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    Ok I am kinda late on this but here is what I seem to remember. In the simarillion there was an entire race of the elves that had beards and Cirdan was onr of them, and being the oldest elf left in middle earth, he was the only one left with a beard. If my friend ever gives me back my sim i'll look it up.
     
  2. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    Entire race of elves with beards?????????
    I can assure you that the simarillion mentions no such thing.
    and just for the record, Cirdan was telerin.
     
  3. The Archangel

    The Archangel Member

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    maybe cirdan was a maia that was disgiused as an elf, and was charged with providing a way to valinor for all the elves left in middle earth. probably not, but it is possible. it would be interesting to find out how cirdan got where-ever he is when we first meet him, is it the mouth of the siron or something? does anybody know?
     
  4. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    when he is first mentioned in the Silm he is the leader of the elves of the falas.
    I think the Silm makes it pretty clear that Cirdan was of Telerin origins. too bad, I
    rather liked your theory.
     
  5. Calarustithil

    Calarustithil Smith of Gondolin

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    I assumed that the reason Cirdan had a beard was because he is one of the oldest elves anywhere and he was the only exception to the rule. He was a member of the first group of elves ever to be awoken at Cuiviénen in the years of the trees before the first age. I think that is in the Silmarillion somewhere.
     
  6. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    nope, it's not.
     
  7. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    Elves do not age physically with the passing of years they grow in wisdom and stuff but that condridicts cirdan in my opinion JRRT made a little mistake remember it took him like a decade to write LOTR
     
  8. Calarustithil

    Calarustithil Smith of Gondolin

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    Hmmm, I looked in my silmarillion and couldn't find it, and googled the web for confirmation with no result. The Encyclopedia of Arda says he "possibly awoke at cuivienen," I couldn't find anything about the beard though. I found lots of other message boards struggling with the same question... Maybe it is contradiction or maybe it is just not fully explained. Beats me.
     
  9. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    I think Byz. is right, JRR Tolkien made minor misstakes on other things so I think it's highly likely that the cirdan beard thing is a misstake too. if you spend your entire life writing about middle-earth, you're bound to make a misstake or two.
     
  10. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    everyone makes little mistakes after all i guess the good ol professer was burnin the midnight oil while writing this part of the book!
     
  11. Calarustithil

    Calarustithil Smith of Gondolin

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    For what it is worth I found this here


    Did Elves have beards?

    Most of Tolkien's writings imply that Elves were generally
    beardless. This is stated clearly in a note written late in Tolkien's
    life which is summarized in the section "Amroth and Nimrodel" in "The
    History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in _Unfinished Tales_. In the note,

    there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being
    observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it
    was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless).

    At first glance, this would seem to settle the issue.

    However, this ignores a crucial exception. In "The Grey Havens",
    when Cirdan the Shipwright greets Frodo and the Elves, we read "Very
    tall he was, and his beard was long". This canonical evidence makes it
    clear that some Elves do have beards. A very incomplete explanation of
    this apparent discrepancy appears in a note associated with "The
    Shibboleth of Feanor" which was published in the journal _Vinyar
    Tengwar_ #41, which reads

    Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of
    life. Nerdanel's father was exceptional, being only early in his
    second.

    (Nerdanel was Feanor's wife.) No other mention of Elvish "cycles of
    life" is known. Even without a full understanding, however, this helps
    to reconcile these statements: Cirdan was one of the oldest Elves in
    Middle-earth and could easily be in his "third cycle of life", and
    humans descended from Elves might never live long enough to reach the
    bearded state.

    The author makes the point that LOTR might be taken as canon over his other writings.

    Thats all I got.
     
  12. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    Yes he did make several mistakes just in LOTR. Gimli says after saving Eomers life at helms deep that " My axe has hewd naught but wood since I left moria" but at Amon hen LEgolas says with Gimli right beside him that " We have hunted and slain many Orcs and my quiver is empty and I must find spent arrows". Those are not direct quotes but they are close enough. I had fond others but I forget now. But I am sure I hearda reason that Cirdan had a beard, I will have to ask my friend that told me and make him prove it.
     
  13. Glaurung

    Glaurung Getting families together

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    Perhaps JRR want Cirdan to have a nautical look, as he was a Teleri Shipwright and sailor. A beard has always had a nautical connotation. Ahoy Thar Matey!
    ButI see that Tolkien covered it with that last "3rd cycle of life" explanation.
    Perhaps Cirdan should have undergone HRT! LOL
     
  14. boromir_the_ranger

    boromir_the_ranger Guest

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    elves would look dumb with beards anyway
     
  15. Iluvatar2004

    Iluvatar2004 New Member

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    well no author, even Tolkien, is perfect...its one of the Inconsistencies of his i guess. For another glaring inconsistency, see http://www.vishnuravi.com/tolkiensociety ...go to the articles section and read the first one
     
  16. Galadriel71

    Galadriel71 New Member

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    If you watch the very beggining of the FOTR during "The prophecy", about the time Sauron comes onto the battlefield, there will be a closeup of Elrond, Most likely i'm wrong, but it looks like "Mr. Anderson" forgot to shave.
     
  17. OrcShaman

    OrcShaman Star Trek addict

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    Perhaps Cirdan was the only non- gay elf male :)
     
  18. isengard111

    isengard111 The Master Chief

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    I was always with the reason given by Calarustithil and some others here who's names I don't remember: Cirdan is just really really old.