Discussion in 'Debates' started by Miriel, Oct 20, 2003.
was he in the battle of Dagorlad? I don't remember that.
you do mean Haldir, right?
Why don't you ask PJ? As it is a complete concoction of his and never should have been included in the film. I understand why PJ had to omit certain things from the books (ie. Bombadil), but his unecessary inclusions were what bothered me. Especially that crap fall of Aragorn's after the Warg attack that never happened - and elves at Helms deep. And the way they arrived was cheezy. I think it detracted from what Helm's deep was meant to be - a heroic stand by the MEN of Rohan faced with insurmountable odds.
It amuses me and at the same time somewhat saddens me to see people discussing 'who sent the elves' etc. when the person who sent the elves was not Elrond, and was not Galadriel, but was a short chubby bearded Kiwi.
I hope I didn't sound too cynical, but that's the way I feel about the issue.
And why does that amuse or sadden you?
we discuss this because we're interested in what story PJ had in mind for the elves who went to battle in his movies.
I have yet to discover anything saddening or amusing about it.
If that's the case - ie about what PJ planned - then I can live with that. But I truly think that a lot of the inquiries in relation to the movies are by people who truly believe that that is what Tolkien intended. A lot of the explanations given cite other Tolkien works, such as U'F Tales and BOLT and the Silmarillion to bolster their viewpoints. The point I am trying to make is that these 'explanations' are all recent inventions to explain away the (IMHO) unecessary inclusions PJ made to the story line. I love the films but I know their limitations. I just don't think that some others do, and are looking to the films as being a true and accurate adaptation, when we all know they're not. I know PJ stated from the outset that the trilogy would be 'his LOTR'.
Even though the history of Middle Earth is fantasy, it is JRR's fantasy and it does sadden me to see it bastardised unecessarily and then this faulty adaptation used as a basis for explanation and discussion not just about the movies, but the entire original fantasy concept of Middle Earth and its history.
It's like it's becoming taboo to say 'Well that was just a movie thing'. If you want to know why the elves went to Helms deep or if they were forced - sure contemplate it - look to the extended edition dvds and interviews with PJ. Just don't try to explain it by delving into Tolkien's work 'cause you won't find the answers 'cause it didn't happen in the original works.
Oh I now what you mean now. I like to discuss the movies but I do keep in mind that I have to see the them totally apart from the story as jrr wrote it. for me, they stand on their own. If it were up to me, there wouldnt have been any elves at helms deep either (amongst some other changes I'd make).
I am a member of this forum for some while and I know there are plenty of members who think alike and even more who consider the movies to be just the movies and the books to be the books, the reason this matter is discussed here is because these are the lotr movie forums. If you take a look at the tolkien book forums, you'll discover a much more literal point of view from the same guys(and girls) who post here.
Ok let me set this striaght. THE ELVES DID NOT CARE FOR MEN ANYMORE! they were leaving to go to valinor. they did not want to concern themselves with the people who would bring SAURON back from the void. the elves thought men were week. they were right. think about it though.
Ok ok, bout the book to movie thing. It never works. Not one movie that was bassed on the book will be 100% accurate. The only movie that I know of that was based on a book was aliens, and that was about 90% accurate. In any case, the book tends to be better than the movies, so I guess some people feel thats the same case about LOTR.
Tenaka it's not a case of 'some people think the book is better than the movies'. If you have read the books then they ARE better than the movies. Obviously if you've only seen the movies than you have nothing to compare them with, and unfortunately for some who do go on to read the books, their imaginations will be clouded by images from the films. Which, in my opinion are in most cases nothing less than brilliant.
Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the movies, I think they are wonderful and have bought just about everything you can in the way of merchandise - I'm an absolute sucker for it.
It's just that I also see the downside to the movies - ie the loss of self-generated imagination because of them etc.
Also I am probably what Phillipa Boyens most ignorantly would label a 'purist', if by her terminology a purist is someone who devoutly loves an incredible work of fiction that I grew up with and learned to know with a deal of intimacy.
When PJ announced he would be making the movies, I immediately logged onto Tolkien Movie Fans sites (only then in their infancy) like TORN and others, and have been just as engrossed as anyone else with the filmmaking process.
What annoys me is people comparing the film to the book - they just shouldn't be compared. One is a very limited albeit brilliant adaptation of the other. I have my gripes about some of the inclusions PJ has made, and I don't like what he's done with some of the characters, but all in all I love the films. If they get more kids to fall in love with Tolkien, and maybe even read the books, then great. And it probably is a bit of an ego thing when I see posts by these self proclaimed Tolkien gurus (which I do not profess to be) discussing Tolkien's works, whose only exposure to them has been through Peter Jackson's vision.
Well Glaurung, I would have to say that at most points I agree with you, but the whole point of this thread was to make sense of what PJ's reasons and explaination for sending the elves to Helm's Deep was. I don't agree with his decision at all, but using the books we were trying to figure out what his reasoning would be.
I thought the touch were Aragorn recieves Anduril at dunland was cool. But I still have my opinons about helms deep.
I wasnt saying the movies were bad, im just saying for those who read the books first (books as in any books that are made into movies) they generally expect the movies to be the same, but always, they cant film some scenes, or they feel that some things needed to be added, ext... so it really wasnt a surprise at all to find out how much PJ did change, and for those who read the books and love them more, thats just how movies generally do the book-to-movie kind of thing. As for me, I like them both, personally I feel that they are both 2 versions of Lord of the Rings and that each is in its own class. I do see where you are coming from because I know what you feel when they make the movies so much more different from the books, but not all changes are bad. Some are good, but as you say, you cant compare them to each other.
I couldn't agree with you more.
Ermmm well , I believethat Galadriel and Elrond spoke and covinced Elrond that men should not be left to fight alone . So Haldir ( HOORAAAA!!!) managed to rally 200 Lorien elves to march with him to Helms Deep and certain death forsaking their chance to live for eternity in the undying lands. I think thats the basics of it anyway.
P.s Its a shame Haldir died - he just rocked
I believe Glorfindel had something to do with it, somehow... I don't know what WETA were thinking when they made the 3:rd age armour, but it had the crest of Glorfindel on the top half
And Glorfindel lived in Rivendell, so why did Galadriels elves have that crest?
sorry for giving you people more things to think about
I think the elves came from Lothlórien, with words from Elrond, that Elrond gave in to Galadriels will to send them aid.
Well they we're forced somehow because they had a last aliance of men and elves, and because of there Loyalty they kinda forced themselves to come.
I would say that Gandalf forsed the elves to Helms Deep. After all he is the White Wizard and the head of the White Council.
The Elves never fought at Helms Deep, that was just added to the movie, though it was a cool idea, and poor Haldir died (which also never happened)
Was Rohan forced to fight? Was Gondor forced to fight? Was Frodo forced to take the ring? I suppose they all could have just stood by.
I echo all those who emphasize that this is a contrivance of PJ, the elves did not fight after the last alliance - which in PJ's world was the "second to last alliance!"
Separate names with a comma.