Eating Meat or Vegetarian/Vegan?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Mububban, Apr 19, 2011.

  1. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    Well, there actually are hundreds of health professionals and dieticians who do argue that being vegetarian can make you healthier, I’ve already posted some information about that. Never do they claim it makes you live longer though. I guess that as you mentioned, the two do go hand in hand. Lower risk of some cancers and things like heat disease could suggest a longer life-span. I prefer to think of each thing individually though.

    I won’t argue with the fact that there are some things that are much easier to obtain through meat, but there are no things that aren’t obtainable without meat. Sure, you can ingest some things like iron and vitamin b12 in large doses with meat… sometimes too large of a dose. That’s not to say you can’t get these things on a plant-based diet however because you can, and it’s really quite simple.

    Of course there are some vegetarians who don’t get what they need. You can be a healthy omnivore or an unhealthy one, a healthy vegetarian or an unhealthy one. A vegetarian can technically live on coke, pizza, chocolate etc and still be vegetarian. It’s obviously going to be down to the individual personality of each person and how much they look after themselves.


    Awesome and lol… I think my pet lizard would agree with your second line there. He believes me to be his slave.

    I never said that the animals reason to exist on this planet is not to be eaten. I said it was to live. Millions of animals are eaten by other animals every single day. It’s the way of life. I’m not against that. I’m against factory farming. I’m against factory farming in the same way most people were against the Nazi death camps during the holocaust. It’s basically the exact same thing with the main difference being this group of living, breathing creatures cannot speak any of our languages. Therefore a large majority of the population just don’t give a crap.

    Did I ever say that humans and animals should have the same rights? I don’t recall ever saying that, if I did it must have been a mistake because I don’t believe that. I think that animals should have rights, their own set of rights but not the same rights as humans. Again, I’m not too sure I actually said that at any point but if I did then it’s my mistake.


    I’m not quite sure what you are saying here.


    We actually can process many different forms of grasses. Just like some other plant-eating species some are good for them while others aren’t. Maybe we can’t process all types of grass but there are definitely some that we can.

    There would be a lot less heart disease and diabetes in the world if people would cut down their meat intake. People just eat way more meat than they should. Just because it won’t kill you straight away many people have decided that means it should be a primary food source. Eating meat in small doses, small portions and maybe once or twice a week is okay for the human body. What most people eat is just out of hand.

    Even if the bonobo is our closest relative my point remains the same. Just like Gorillas, and much of the ape and chimp families the bonobo’s main diet is fruit. If their bodies etc are similar to ours then you should know that like the gorilla, their diet is something like 90% fruits and plants with a small amount of meat. Most of which is either insects or small squirrels. Not cows, pigs, sheep etc.

    Speaking of which. Insects are actually amazing for humans. High in protein and nutrients, very sustainable and just all round good for us. It’s a shame that there is such a stigma against eating insects in Western societies. Just like the bonobo who is our close cousin insects would make a great and valuable addition to the human diet.

    As a vegetarian I wouldn’t eat them of course. That’s more out of practice than anything. I actually think that the human body would have originally been designed to feed of insects and plants more than anything else. And even after all these years of evolving and adapting our food habits that it's probably still the case.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    First of all, thanks for mentioning Nazis. You know it's a good debate when someone mentions Nazis :D

    I think there is some confusement going on here and there. This is what you said.

    To start with, I don't think anyone is on this planet to live. I think existing, or being alive, is a matter of coincidence, no deeper meaning attached. From the first 4 sentences above, I surmised that we disagreed on that point.

    Comparing slavery and subjugation to our relation to (other) animals in conjunction with your claimed reason for existence gave me the impression that you were of the opinion that animals should have more rights, if not equal those of humans. I suppose I was only partly right :)

    You did suggest in your more recent post that animals are entitled to more rights. I'd be very interested in what exactly these should be, and whether there should be a differentiation by species.

    We can eat some parts of grasses, such as most seeds (grain) and unusual soft bits like bamboo shoots. The thing is, we can't digest the stringy parts which make up most of the plant. We can't digest any of the stringy parts plants provide us with, really. I mean, we could eat them. And probably survive. But it would be catabolic food for us.

    It makes us quite inefficient vegetarians, not being able to process this large (largest) body of vegetable biomass.

    I guess you're right, although small deer might also be on the menu. I wonder what the point is, though. Should we substitute ungulates for rodents as part of our diets?

    I don't have anything against insects, but they tend to be hard to come by. The closest I can find in the super market is shrimps, which, I suppose, is the animal I give the least about when eating :)

    I do wonder, though, why most vegetarians/vegans tend to stay away from this otherwise excellent source of protein. How does practice come into it precisely?
     
  3. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Out of curiosity... has anyone here ever read the "SAS Survival guide"? It's basically a book about wilderness survival strategies and a very neat read actually. Bugs are definitely on the menu in a survival situation. Apparently there aren't too many that humans can't eat and lots of indigenous peoples used to (or maybe still do) eat them as a protein source. Earthworms and ants are supposed to be good dried and ground into powder (you can add them to soup :p). Grasshoppers, crickets (a local candy store here carries a treat called the "Cricket Lick-It" - a lollipop with a real (dead) cricket inside) and all kinds of other creepy crawlies are supposed to be good for you. I don't think I could ever eat a bug myself unless I was starving to death though. I'm too squeamish about the darn things at the best of times. *shudders*
    I suppose bugs would be an excellent choice for a protein source to feed the world.... if it weren't for the yuck factor anyway.
     
  4. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    To me it is a valid comparison. I can’t think of two things more similar than factory farms and death camps. If I could then I would have used that as a comparison instead.

    I basically think that most animals should have at least basic rights to protect them from acts such as torture, abuse and mass inhumane murder. I’m not suggesting big things here. They are basically simple requests that will probably never be met in this world as long as humans live here. When you think about it, animals do already have rights… or at least the cute fluffy ones that everybody loves do.

    If you are caught abusing a dog or a cat in your own home, you can be arrested by the police and be fined large amounts for animal cruelty. Those animals have rights… or at least in many Western countries that’s the case. Yet in these same countries millions upon millions of cows, sheep, pigs, chickens etc are abused and mistreated beyond belief every year, yet the police turn a blind eye because I dunno… they aren’t as cute as dogs I guess. It’s this type of double standard that pisses me off and that’s sort of what I speak about when I say I wish animals had rights. In particular, I wish factory farmed animals had basic rights.

    What do you mean by stringy parts? The most stringy part of a vegetable I can think of is roots. And many type of roots can be easily digested by humans. Some are even good for us although off the top of my head I don't remember which ones. I don’t know how anything you just said could lead to vegetarians being inefficient. Humans are highly efficient as vegetarians.

    I don’t think any type of deer live in the same areas as bonobos. And my main point was that we differ our diet greatly to that of our closest natural relatives. Their bodies are not made for large things like cows, pigs etc so they don’t eat them. If we were designed in a similar way to them yet insist on eating such things then it’s pretty silly on our behalf.

    It is very hard to come by insects bred for human consumption in most Western countries. The closest I can think of is buying worms/crickets etc in pet stores that are bred for reptile food and cooking those. Although recently the trend of eating insects in the city where I live has been gaining more momentum. They even served insects at a recent food festival we have here. It was very cool indeed.

    The reason why we stay away from them is basically due to how dedicated most vegetarians and vegans are to their diet. Each word has it’s own meaning. A vegan eats nothing containing any animal product, a vegetarian will eat no flesh of another animal, a pescetarian will only eat fish and other seafood but no other type of meat. There’s words for everything and even subcategories within those.

    I agree that eating insects would be good for me, is a highly sustainable food source etc, but if I ate them I would no longer be able to call myself a vegetarian. If I did it would be a lie to myself and everyone else. I’m content remaining a vegetarian for the time being and I don’t want to give that up just to try insects. Who knows, maybe in the future there will be bugatarians :p.

    Never read it myself, but it sounds interesting. Many modern day Eastern cultures and other cultures all around the world consume many types of insects as a staple of their diets. It’s not uncommon in a large majority of the world. It’s mostly in the very Westernized countries where it is seen as unusual, where is in most of the rest of the world it’s the normal thing to do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  5. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Came across this yesterday...lol