Eating Meat or Vegetarian/Vegan?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Mububban, Apr 19, 2011.

  1. Dynan

    Dynan New Member

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    Just so happens, I did a minor thesis on the matter. The research I found inspired a vegetarian kick for about....3 weeks. I've also a Bachelor's in health and nutrition. Though there have been studies (none so very compelling, or backed up with follow-up studies) that claim that humans' gastrointestinal tract is in fact "designed" to process plant matter more efficiently than it is animal protein. However; there are both essential micro- and macronutrients that animal products provide in combinations with other symbiotic elements that we cannot get anywhere else. I say trust in our bodies--which includes our cravings. They've evolved to a most spectacular level of efficiency, and 'know' how to process nutrients, and which nutrients to process. If we take this burden unto ourselves (going on manual, trying to guess which, and how much of nutrients we need to replace animal protein), it could be a recipe for malnutrition (at the very least...death at its most extreme). Eating animals is, in fact murder. It's intentional killing. But, they do it too. Do you think a lion feels bad for the gazelle it's ripping to shreds? Uh-uh. And "moral aficionados" reply, "but it's natural!". Well. So is our consumption...just on a much larger scale.

    For me, it's the way in which we treat and slaughter the animals. Hormones, antibiotics, tiny living spaces and discarded diseased animal parts as feed is NOT the way to go. It's a health hazard for us, and unnecessarily cruel for them. I eat meat that is free-range and organic (if I can get it). I also steer clear of animals that are over-hunted/fished. Like tuna and swordfish.

    Most interesting meat I've tasted: duck tesicles. The little critters are well-hung.

    I don't think it's a travesty to eat dogs,horses and cats...I don't think I'd do it (yeah, I own one, and I think they're cute). I have no problem admitting that I try not to think about the face of the animal I'm eating....but really...does anyone?

    As far as religious beliefs go? Crocks of crap. Any religion that favors a single animal, with disregard to all others, is dumb. Buddhism, for instance stays away from most living things (I say only "most", because they still eat plants. And yes. Plants are living too. And how the hell do we know if they don't feel?)
     
  2. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Groups like PETA would prefer this woman to die, because her life was saved as a result of animal research...although one of their head honchos is a diabetic who takes pig-derived insulin daily. She explains away her hypcorisy by saying that it's okay for her to do this, as her life is important, because she uses it to save animals.

    HYPOCRITE!!!!!!

     
  3. Eris

    Eris Figment Of Imagination

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    when you need food it's food!
    we just eat some kind of meats! if ostrich is a interesting animal then me too:D
    I think there are some reasons that you shouldn't eat every meat! you can get sick!
    though I eat meat but I have never harmed any animal myself
     
  4. Julie

    Julie Well-Known Member

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    Well indirectly you have..


    Where are you from, Erin?
     
  5. Eris

    Eris Figment Of Imagination

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    Eris*
    don't you think every creature will stop leaving at a point! and human body needs protein to be stronger.
    when eating meat is killing that I get obsess with it
    If you think animals have feelings I think plants are the most alive thing in the word. they understand love and they bring happiness! why would you eat them then?
    using animals and plants to Just Having things is wrong but living...
    you don't wanna know where I am from :D (the worst place in the planet!)
     
  6. Julie

    Julie Well-Known Member

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    Afghanistan?
    C'mon tell me! :)

    I don't think plants have a conscience so I can't feel sorry for them. When you eat meat you're eating a dead animal that someone killed so you could eat it. Everything you get out of meat, you can replace with other food. So why wouldn't you?
     
  7. Eris

    Eris Figment Of Imagination

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    No! we really don't like people from Afghanistan! they have done so many horrible things to the women in our country!
    When I found out that the plants have a very sensitive conscience that all of my flower died when I was really sick. and when you talk to them they understand what you tell them. when you are kind they will grow fast and if you are sad they will die! Just try it.
    because it's either artificial or from animals!
    why would a lion eat any animal ever? why lions doesnt eat vegetables just like rabbits?
     
  8. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    No I think it just shows that wacky groups like PETA only work because crazy people end up in charge :p
     
  9. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    I believe meat is food. I eat meat daily and would not give that up unless I had no choice. Meat is good and good for you (in moderation etc etc.) I do not believe it is murder at all, animals eat other animals, and we are animals. Just like other animals, humans are omnivores. We need the nutrition that is offered in both plants and animals. I think thusly, it is natural for humans to eat meat. A simple argument to this is that if humans were meant to stick to a vegetarian diet, then there would be no need for humans to find obscure plants and have to take supplements in pill form in order to function normally. That being said, I have nothing against those who chose a vegetarian diet, just those that come up with lame arguments to, futilely, get me to change my mind or make me feel guilty for chowing down on a once living creature.
    I do, however, believe strongly in animal rights. I hate to see living creatures treated cruelly and have reported several people, my own family included, for mistreating animals. I go out of my way to even avoid stepping on bugs, though there is a line that if they cross it I will have to retaliate.

    I would say that the strangest animal I have eaten would be either frog or alligator. Both are tasty, though I do like alligator more. I primarily eat chicken and beef though. While I do not think wrongly of odder things, like kangaroo and whatnot (odd to me and my culture that is), there are things I am not willing to eat....unless I can be convince...I typically stay away from organs...have tried beef tongue once, and while I can say that it did not taste bad at all, the mere thought is enough to make me not eat it again, unless I have to.


    edit: oh, and PETA is a terrorist and hypocritical organization. I have choice words against PETA.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  10. Daenerys

    Daenerys Blood of the Dragon

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    Those of you who are saying you are for animal rights, make sure you know exactly what you are saying...PETA is animal rights, I think most of you are for animal welfare. There is a difference. I think this little website sums it up nicely: http://homepages.sover.net/~lsudlow/ARvsAW.htm
     
  11. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    I just found this thread and thought I'd post in it. I am vegetarian and have been for about 10 years now. And I do it for ethical reasons above all others. I love being vegetarian! The foods great, I feel happier and overall healthier than when I used to eat meat. I can't imagine myself ever going back to meat. I also recently moved into a new apartment with a vegetarian friends so now I live in a completely meat-free space :D
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You know why the Orcs are cool?Because they eat pork.

    Pork is soooo nice.Pig meat,wild boar meat.It's just fantastic.But don't overdo it.You have to eat balanced....almost always have a salad in the lunch table.Eat chicken or beef once in a while.
     
  13. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    Ah screw it, I just had to have a go at this post.

    Okay well first of all, meat isn't as good for you as you think. Humans can eat meat, in very small doses, but many people eat way more meat than they should. Did you know that vegetarians overall have a lower rate of colon cancer, obesity and heart disease than people who eat meat? That's been proven several time by scientific studies around the world. And we actually don't need the nutrition offered in both. Our bodies are perfectly capable of solely surviving on plant-based material, it's in fact more healthy for us most of the time.

    And yes, you are right. We are animals and animals eat other animals. That is the way of life. What I disagree with is the modern meat industry. Think of a pride of lions. They will take down one antelope. The males will eat first, then the females, then the cubs. After that any scraps are taken care of by vultures and other such scavengers. There is nothing wasted. It's a true life cycle.

    Now look at how humans eat meat. We mass-produced millions and millions of living animals every year in awful conditions. Factory farms where they are over fed, never see light, die in each others feces, have their beaks cut off etc. This is not a life for any creature. Especially one who we all know can feel pain and fear, just like us. Animals eating other animals is a very different excuse to humans eating animals. Nature doesn't have factory farms.

    Our waste is also shocking. Something like 40% of all food in modern US supermarkets is thrown to the trash. That's so much wasted life of innocent animals who just go to waste.

    I'm a vegetarian and I take no supplements, I haven't for years. I'm in good shape, healthy, not overweight, not underweight. And obscure plants? I didn't know carrots, broccoli, and capsicum were obscure. That's news to me that I have to live on obscure plants and supplements to survive. Also, if it was natural for humans to eat meat, wouldn't we look more like carnivores? Everything about the human body suggests we are plant eaters. Our small teeth with larger molars for crushing plant-materials is VERY different to the teeth set of every carnivorous animals. Do you like the massive strong talons/claws we have? Yeah, I don't have them either. I just have small weak fingernails, nothing like the hunting claws all carnivorous animals have.

    And you know our intestines? They are actually more similar to every plant-based animals in length than those of meat-eating creatures. Scientifically our bodies are telling us to focus on plant-based diets and not meat. Also, if it was so 'natural' for humans to eat meat then why do we kill it, skin it, cut it into tiny bits and cook the hell out of it before eating it. Isn't it true that some humans get sick from eating raw meat? If we were natural meat-eaters then we would easily be able to digest things like raw meat, small bone, bits of fur and feathers etc.

    Also, do you know that our closest relatives in the wild are big apes such as gorillas. And did you know that even gorillas are 99% vegetarian. And the only meat in their diet is small bugs and other insects?

    As for people trying to make you feel guilty about eating meat then I agree with you on that. I personally hate it when vegetarians try to guilt meat-eaters and convert them when they don't want to be converted. I also hate it when, like in your post you tell me that I am wrong for being vegetarian and leave a bunch of useless information as to why.

    I'm glad you are supported of animal rights. Do yourself a favour and never visit a slaughterhouse or factory farm. As an animal lover you might not like what you see there.

    And we agree on Peta. Those clowns give animal activists a bad name.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  14. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Vegetarianism has its own set of health risks. There is no pulling the health card without looking at the bigger picture. So far, I have to come across a study which confirms actual improvements in longevity. If you believe you can live a longer and/or healthier life being a vegetarian, than I am fine with that. But there is no direct scientific data to back that up.

    Big game, such as lions and tigers have a tendency to go on a killing spree. They have been known to kill more than they can eat. Surely, other animals will scavenge what's left, but your claim is a bit bold.

    I don't agree, however. There are entire species which exist solely for their symbiotic nature with mankind, mostly domesticated animals. Part of that symbiosis is that we eat them. I wouldn't exclude that pact from the life circle, as you say.

    Eating such animals and drinking their produce is a choice. I would agree that much, if not most production animals have such lives. But you don't have to eat that kind. And you don't need to be a vegetarian not to.

    Shape or weight are very poor indicators to health, I'm afraid. Between the morbid obesity and dagerous underweight, there's a lot of debate possible...

    Certain vitamins and amino acids are most easily obtained through meat and other animal products (animals being made up of the building blocks we are made of). Being a vegetarian requires taking at least some care in ways of nutrition. Now, you might be on a diet which supplies you with all the essentials, but I would call it a real health risk.


    Ominvores... we're omnivores. Like most apes are. Such as bonobos, our closest relative in terms of evolution.

    Ah, yes. Apes.

    Gorillas are further removed from us than Chimps and Bonobos. Quite a bit further, actually.... And since both Chimps and bobobos are omnivores...
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  15. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    First of all, I never once said that being vegetarian will make you live longer or improve longevity. You said that. What I actually said (and you even quoted it) is that vegetarians have a lower risk of heart disease, colon cancer and obesity. And that has been proven with scientific research. If you would like some more information on that then please, check out these sources:

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/a...eart-disease-nutritionist-20120604-1zrk4.html

    http://newsinhealth.nih.gov/issue/Jul2012/Feature1

    Also, you state that being vegetarian has it's own set of health risks but you didn't state what health risks they were. There's actually no harm that can be done to human body from being vegetarian, only benefits really. Of course there are some people who are vegetarian and still don't look after themselves or eat right. But a well-planned out balanced vegetarian diet has been proven to have no negative health effects.

    I'm actually confused by your last sentence here. "I would agree that much, if not most production animals have such lives". What do you actually mean by that? It might be the sentence structure or something but I got completely lost reading that and have no idea what you are trying to say.

    As for prey, do you really think animals waste food like that in the wild? As I said even if a predator did leave something behind it would be eaten by scavengers and not wasted. Here 40% of all food is wasted without even being taken home to a persons house. It's ridiculous. You can't even compare our waste to the waste of wild animals. That's a joke. I disagree that some animals live solely to serve mankind. That's a joke. Every animal on the planet is here for it's own reason. Just the same as ours. It's to live. No animal was here just to serve mankind. That's as ignorant as saying black people were put on this planet to serve white people. Or saying women are just property of men.

    Why exactly are these poor indicators of health? To say someone is in good shape is to say there are in good health. It’s been a common expression for many years.

    There’s no vitamin/mineral etc that is required to be a healthy person that cannot be obtained through plant-base materials. Yes… I’m sure I’m at a “real” health risk. Gee, with my lowered risk of heart disease, diabetes, obesity, colon cancer etc. It’s amazing that I’m still walking as a vegetarian.


    I never said we weren’t omnivores. If you recall at the start I said this “Humans can eat meat, in very small doses, but many people eat way more meat than they should.”. I never once stated that humans can’t eat meat, because they can. I was trying to say that most humans eat too much meat, which is bad for us because our bodies weren’t’ meant to eat a lot of meat. And apes are our relatives. A bonobo is a type of chimpanzee, they are all in the same family and are related etc.
     
  16. Anrisa Ryn

    Anrisa Ryn Author, artist, gamer

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    I agree with Mububban. Animals are raised for human consumption, so it's not wrong to eat them. However, they do deserve to be treated humanly. From my experience, the best meats to eat are kosher, because they MUST be killed painlessly, and taken care of in life without treating them badly.
     
  17. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    I disagree with the fact that just because they are raised to be eaten, we should accept that as fact. Most Westerners look down on some Eastern countries for eating dogs and cats. How is that any different to pigs or cows? It just so happens that in those countries they are the animals being raised for food. Yet in other countries they are loved and cherished as pets. No animal was born to be a pet, be food, be a coat etc, each animal was just born to live on this planet. It's not like nature designed some to be eaten and others not to, that was all completely built by humans. And we built it pretty freaking poorly if you ask me.
     
  18. Anrisa Ryn

    Anrisa Ryn Author, artist, gamer

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    As cows can be argued to also produce milk, sheep make wool and milk, goats make milk, and chickens eggs, what purpose do animals like pigs serve other than food?
     
  19. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    They don't SERVE any purpose. That's what I'm trying to say. Neither do cows, goats, sheep etc. They were not put on this planet for us. They are their own living creature. The purpose of all of those animals is to exist and live their own life in this evil planet. They were NOT made for humans. Saying that a cow's only purpose in life is to give us meat and milk is like saying that all women were only put on the planet for the use of men. And all black people were put here only for white men to exploit. It's exactly the same. The animals are here to live their own lives. We just took it upon ourselves to use them, exploit them and torture them to the extent that some people like yourself have become confused into thinking they are our property. Now they are not. They are not property and they are not objects, but rather living breathing creatures that can feel pain, fear and loneliness just like us.
     
  20. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I can't make a moral distinction between eating plants and animals myself. Both are living things and I think that plants must be aware of damage to their bodies just like animals are. We perceive bodily damage as pain. I have no idea what plants perceive when they experience damage but I think that we as humans are extremely egocentric. Just because something doesn't communicate or perceive things in the same way that we do, doesn't mean that it doesn't communicate or perceive at all. We can even perceive the chemical messages plants send us... the smell of flowers is a good example. It attracts insects (and people apparently) to the plant for a specific purpose. Why would we think that if a plant can communicate with us (even in such a limited way) that it can't communicate with its own kind? If that's the case, then why is it morally OK to eat plants and not animals? You're still taking a life either way.

    I wonder if people have a moral issues with eating animals mostly because we are animals and we can identify with them better than we can with plants. Calves and lambs are much cuter than grain but at least we end their lives before we grind them into flour! There are environmental problems inherent in growing massive monoculture fields of grain and potatoes (as examples) that need pesticides and herbicides to prevent them from getting infested with weeds and bugs. The greenhouse gases released from all the driving the tractors have to do to prepare the fields, plant them, harvest them and then plough them under in the fall are significant. In short, there are just as many moral issues with being vegetarian as there are with being omnivorous so I try not to judge anyone for their dietary convictions one way or the other. The reality is that we all need to eat to live unless some brilliant person discovers a way for us to photosynthesize instead.

    I grew up on a farm and I know very well what kind of issues surround the raising of livestock and crops. Is it true that some farm animals are treated poorly? Sure it is; but as a consumer I can choose not to buy the cheapest factory-farmed meat on sale at the big-chain grocery store because I disagree with how it was probably raised, transported and slaughtered. Lots of small, independent (ie not factory-farmers) sell custom meats, eggs etc at farmers markets and at the farm gates. They put signs out on the road: free-range eggs, turkeys and chickens or "home-raised, organic beef". Unfortunately, cheap, easy and convenient are what consumers demand and that is the biggest determinant of the kind of life that livestock are going to have because farming is BIG business. Similarly, the farming practices used to produce the vegetables that I buy can also be called into question. If that matters to you (and we all have to make up our own minds on that one), be careful what you buy and ask intelligent questions from the grocery store manager about where the stuff comes from. Better yet, stop at some of those farm gates and see what they have available. You might even catch a glimpse of your next meal grazing happily in the field with his/her buddies along the way. I also wouldn't assume that farmers and people who eat meat can't care deeply for or feel compassion for their animals. My grandfather actually hired a backhoe to bury his favourite cow on the front lawn of the farm when she died. You don't do that kind of thing for an animal that you consider to be worth something to you only because they're a source of income.

    With regard to the 40% waste of livestock carcasses: it isn't anywhere near that high. A lot of that "waste" gets diverted into pet food and livestock feed. (Incidentally... we'll leave the ethics of THAT and mad cow disease to another thread :)) You can also find it in the garden centre in products like blood and bone meal. Skin can be used for leather, and hoof and horn have their own uses too. Just because we don't eat those parts doesn't mean that they aren't used for something.

    I won't comment too much on animal rights activists except to say that they seem to be woefully ignorant of certain truths... especially of the one that some domesticated animals have been selectively bred by humans to the point that they are no longer capable of survival without human help.

    People have become so far removed from the natural environment in the modern world that they have some really strange ideas about life and where food comes from. I think there is little doubt that we need agriculture to feed our huge population because we couldn't possibly feed everyone if we existed in a hunter-gatherer society anymore. Since we have no choice but to eat, all we can do is choose to make sure that what we put in our mouths got there in a responsible fashion.... whether we be vegetarian or omnivore.