Does anyone else think Martin explains too much?

Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by Unraveller, May 18, 2005.

  1. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Maybe it's just me but one of the things I love about WoT is figuring things out from the hints Jordan gives you. Martin could have done the same so easily but at times seems to insult your intelligence by giving full explanations of events you could have figured out by yourself, often in the same book.
     
  2. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    I can honestly say I never felt that way about ASOIAF. In all respects I think Martin is a much better author than Jordan, and prefer the way he writes. There are plenty of events in ASOIAF we are yet to know, and I was very surprised many times during the story (though, admittadly, it was the deaths of certain characters).
     
  3. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    But that's what I mean, he is a very talented author, writes lovable and loathable characters and is great at suprising the reader (the scene in King's Landing where Cersei makes her move and imprisons Ned, with Arya making her getaway, is one of the few pieces of writing that can make my pulse race) but seems at times to be pandering to or aiming at an intelligence level below that of his average reader. I mean, he didn't need to have Littlefinger explain so much, nor does he need to have so many PoVs, at times I felt it was being handed to me on a plate. And I don't mean in the Holmes' revelation/Christie summing up/Evil-villan-revealing-his-plans-to-the-hero-before-he-leaves-him-in-an-easily-escapable-near-death-situation kind of way. It was just unnecessary and spoiled the satisfaction of being able to work it out by yourself. Almost like reading spoilers.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2005
  4. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Lots of dashes there...
    :p

    I agree with both of you. Martin keeps springing surprises on us, but he also over-explains stuff occasionally. However, I love the fact that he has so many PoVs... it makes it really interesting.
     
  5. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    Yes, I much prefer the many different PoV's. It puts a good spin on things, I really like the way Martin uses it to change your opinions of certain characters. Jaime Lannister being the most obvious, and to a lesser extenet, the Hound.
     
  6. Sorcha

    Sorcha Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't really think he's reducing the level or anything, because I still find it a difficult read. Thought provoking I suppose...I always assumed the style was more descriptive to give a clear picture, and then fill in the minute details. Trying to make the reader feel like they are there.
     
  7. Talan

    Talan Member

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    I think Jordan is the one that insults your intelligence...
     
  8. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    I can agree with Unraveller on a few points. For instance, the seventy seven course meal and Joff's wedding. I believe there was about three paragraphs listing different dishes in detail . . . that was a bit grueling.
     
  9. Sorcha

    Sorcha Moderator Staff Member

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    Hehe, wellllll I haven't gotten there yet :p I've become a slow reader ;)
     
  10. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    oops, sorry for the spoiler
     
  11. Talan

    Talan Member

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    GRRM is a big man. What do you expect? ;)

    But what about the endless chapters even in the first book of WoT about traveling from town to town, inn to inn. And then in later books, the descriptions of dresses right in the middle of an exchange of dialogue?

    I don't see how you can criticize GRRM for that, when Jordan does it in far more excruciating detail.

    If you think Martin explains too much, (Using Littlefinger as an example in the third book after about 3,000 pages into the story is inane) then pay a visit to the Westeros board. There you'll find out that you probably didn't catch too much on your first few reads.

    I couldn't stomach more than 7 books of WoT, if I had not read any before now, I wouldn't be able to read just one. It's slow, derivative, and trite. Please use a better example.
     
  12. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    At no point in any of my posts did I state that I think WoT is better than aSoIaF, neither did I say that Jordan was a better writer than Martin. What I DID say was that I prefer Jordan's way of revealing facts and events, hints rather than step by step explanations.

    I have surveyed more than a few sites and FAQs on both series and even taking into account the fact that Jordan's books have been out much longer (I started WoT many, many years ago and have been participating in discussions on it almost since then) there is still a far greater amount of material in Jordan's works for discussion and debate. And no, there wasn't much I didn't catch and that's only on one reading.

    I like aSoIaF, at the moment I may even like it better than WoT (especially given the last few books) but the unnecessary explanations really bug me. Yes, unnecessary descriptions really bug me too, I'm one of the first to critique Jordan for describing Elayne's dresses and her bathtub routine yet again, but we're not talking about that at the moment.

    Another example, in the final epilogue he may as well have come out and told us it was Catelyn. Why not just have her stay in the shadows, nod her judgement and maybe show her scarred hands? We still could have figured it out easily but there would have been a lot more room for debate.

    Maybe I'm just into mystery more than other people but in any long series it is necessary to keep it alive between releases of books.
     
  13. Talan

    Talan Member

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    Do you not understand that you can still debate what she's going to do?

    You can still debate what was the purpose of her revival, how will she serve Rhallor?

    Sure, he told you that she was resurrected, but he hasn't shown her motives as of yet.

    Oh, and I basically know how Wheel of Time ends; the heroes, who few or none will die off, will defeat the Dark Lord. Impressive, eh?

    Do you not agree that there's far more going on in aSoIaF than in WoT? So I think it's fine for Martin to "hand" us some information every now and then, I mean, what would we discuss for 5 years during the wait for AFFC?
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2005
  14. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    She was resurrected because of who she was and because she could be resurrected, unlike Robb. She will serve as a rallying point for those who are still loyal to the Starks, a witness to the Red Wedding and as a sign of the power of R'hllor. Lord Beric was a bannerman to House Stark after all. Her motives are transparently obvious at this stage, revenge against House Frey and House Lannister.

    And who doesn't know how WoT ends? Except whether Rand survives or not (but of course he will). Are you trying to tell me you thought Frodo would fail in LotR? Very impressive.

    Speculating about what WILL happen in aSoIaF is like trying to predict the weather by looking at the sky, sometimes you can tell what's about to happen but not always and who knows what tomorrow will bring? That's one of the things that is great about it. But you know exactly what's happened already. There is a lot going on and while you may not know what exactly is happening right now you probably will by the end of the chapter, almost definitely by the end of the book.
     
  15. Talan

    Talan Member

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    Oh wow, hey George, didn't know that was concrete!

    (Note: I believe she will get her revenge on the Freys. But what if she's drawn away from it before she can get her chance?)

    Okay, then why are you criticizing aSoIaF by citing Wheel of Time as an example? Impeccable logic there, George.

    Oh, and Wheel of Time and Lord of the Rings are both quite boring.

    Since you know how aSoIaF is going to end, will you to give us a synopsis on it, please, George?

    P.S. I'm awaiting confirmation on whether you really are George or not

    P.S.S. I'm pretty sure you are, so don't think I'm doubting you, George. It's my friend, he's always sceptical.

    P.S.S.S. Seriously, he still doesn't believe that we've landed on the moon!
     
  16. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Puerile ranting, sarcasm and an insulting tone don't make for a convincing argument, just a childish one.
    Yes, hilarious. You know how WoT will end, should we call you Robert?
    It's not concrete, it's logical. Nothing is concrete until it has been written and published, being as it is only a fantasy story in the head of G.R.R. Martin. But speculation is all about logic.

    I am not using WoT as an example, I am simply using Jordan's writing style in parts of WoT as an example. If you would care for a different example then try any good novel with mysteries in it, or for an easier one, watch the Sixth Sense. The reasons I chose WoT are because I am familiar with it and they are both long fantasy series. Could you please use your impeccable logic to give me some reasons why it does not serve as an example?

    Great way to garner sympathy on this board...:rolleyes:

    As succinct as yours of WoT? Sure, loads of people die in occasionally gruesome ways, Houses rise and fall, people have sex with kids, family members and possibly animals until the Others descend on the Wall and Danys and her dragons rally the shattered remnants of the Seven Kingdoms with the surviving important people to fight them. Impressive huh?

    Now do you see how useless this kind of thing is?

    As I have already stated, Robert, your insistance that I am George is about as funny as me calling you Robert, although perhaps more original, isn't it Robert?

    And as a side-note, it's P.S., P.P.S. and P.P.P.S.
     
  17. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    C'mon guys, this is just getting childish and straying from the point.

    Talan, your points are valid, but there is no need for sarcasm and child like behaviour. This is a board for discussion, and if Unraveller wants to discuss a certain point of GRRM's work, then he has a right to without being attacked.

    Although, I must admit, Unraveller, that if you can get through ten WoT books, and then complain about descriptions in ASOIAF, theres something definently wrong with you :D ;)
     
  18. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    But that's just it, I'm not talking about descriptions. I have repeatedly stated that Jordan is ruining a great series with his excessive and repetitive descriptions. What I'm complaining about in aSoIaF is the explanations.
     
  19. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    To be honest, i never even noticed the explanations. I thought letting us know that Catelyn was ressurected was a great ending to the book. I gasped and thought "what a great ending to a great book."

    It doesn't bother me at all that some of things I didn't figure out for myself. If I wanted to not know everything, Id go read a mystery book. Go try the DaVinci Code, if you don't want to know whats going on half the time :rolleyes:

    I think ASOIAF is great the way it is, and don't think Martin gives everything away. There are some instances where you need to figure things out, especially in the various prophecies.
     
  20. Talan

    Talan Member

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    It was quite obvious from the start that Bruce Willis was dead.

    Two page long descriptions of dresses. Need I say more?