Discussion in 'Medieval Boards' started by Gûd Daedheloth, Aug 13, 2003.
Honestly, I believe most "dragons" were more like large kamodo dragons.
no one here said they could talk!!!! and they could exist, dinosaurs existed, what reason is there that they dont fit into todays food-chain, the point is that they would, its just the problem that they all happen to be dead?
and stick a t-rex in a civilised place and whats gonna happen? Its going to want to eat people and the people are going to kill it, same with a dragon. hmmm that seems to be a plausable explaination for why theyre not here now but are in our legends.
And fire breathing is not impossible, its perfectly plausable, its just chemicals, we made flame throwers, machines are just crude attempts for man to try to match the perfection of biology. Glands secreting a natural form of napalm etc. those beetles that actual do breath fire (or expell flaming chemicals), as said earlier. And an acidic spit? that is on the same scale, its complex bio-chemistry for you. Venomous bite i dont believe as i said earlier.
Larsen, you read back on this thread and the previous explainations, most are valid. I think dragons were surviving dinosaurs much like the loch ness monster. and due to the extra few thousand years of evolution they developed the fire capability (or not, they may have even had it in prehistoric times, all we found were bones). I doubt they are as depicted, probably over large lizards like the kamodo dragon 7-10 feet max, with a larg wing span. Problable just aerial scavengers using the fire to kill their pray while at a safe distance and as a defence mechanism. Because of theyre size, when man came along with cunning technology, swords and bows, we extinctified them. why no fossils? well we dont tend to have any fossils since about three tousand years ago, if mankind killed them off their carcasses probably rotted, their bones dispersed etc.
well if you call a large kimodo dragon a dragon then yes they exist... but then the question shouldve been "do large kimodo dragons exist?" then ye all could have saved all that flapping and wailing, i dont think anyone would argue with that.
crusader, us and dinosaurs are far apart in time
increasingly it appears that there is no loch ness monster
the simple explanation is that people saw things a bit like dragons and exaggerated and made mistakes and the stories got better each time they told them. we made the dragons, and its better that way, imagine a world where that jerk off of time team picks through dragon poo to see what it ate.
dragons are a creature of spirit that live in our stories and dreams. if i say dragon to you, then you know what i mean, so they exist, like elves, hercules, superman and the pink panther; creatures of meme and not gene, and to my mind we are far the richer for it.
Here's a thot: every medieval picture that I ever saw of "St George and the Dragon" shows the hero lancing the thing from horseback: and the dragon is not large, in fact Georgie is pointing his lance downward to spear the thingie on the ground. It is usually depicted as a large "worm" with wings: i.e. a Komodo-like shape and about that size or a little larger. So who knows ? At least the medieval artists did not envision a "Reign of Fire" type flying beastie of unusual size.
Heres my theory at least i think that the dragons were large Lizard like creatures with wings like in saint georges picture they might have been able to breath fire anything is possible you know
the tradition of dragons looking like the cover of a D&D game probly came from the welsh flag. you never hear of the lampton worm? they were a mishmash of features from other creatures and products of the imagination that made the story better.
here is a page from a medieval scottish bestiary describing a dragon that kills with its tail and lives in hot countries.
and heres another picture, not inconcivable that you could get a big lizard in libya.
i guess the other thing is that medieval times are well documented as are roman, greek, and to some extent egyptian and ancient chinese and inca and pre-inca and whatever. dragons appear in folk tales and legends, not accounts as far as i know, like freddy krugers existance is attested to by films, but not diaries and letters or documentaries.
For all you Bible people out there it is in the Bible................
Here is Job 41:1-34:
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan  with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.
13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has  rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out. 20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.
22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.
29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is his equal-
a creature without fear.
34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."
i believe they exist like fairies, loch ness, pixies, angels, unicorns, pegasus, mermaids etc etc etc!!
I think dragons did live.. I mean, dinosaurs did so why not dragons? this may sound stupid, but i think middle earth even exsisted once
im not really sure if dragons existed. should there have been some evidence? i think unicorns existed, though
Dragons still exist. I find it hard to believe that hundreds of thousands of years of magic and mystical beliefs just suddenly was proved wrong. There are things we choose not to believe. Dragons have always been here. Dragons will always be here even after we are gone.
Evidence? Sure I could show you evidence of alot of things. But unless you choose to believe it then in the end nothing matters that I show you. And if you choose to believe, really believe, then the proof will smack you in the face.
Theres no evidence for a reason.
The only kind of evidence you could get would be fossild and bones. Well the reason dragons are in modern myths shows they survived to medieval times or earlier, and the environmental circumstances today arent right for fossils. you need a tar-pit or a desert etc. today the carcas would be torn apart by scavengers, the bones dispersed by geological changes and weather etc. so no fossils, no bodies. And as dragons are probably surviving dinosaurs, any that died back then and made fossils would go into the dinosaur category. and its hard to tell from bones whether it had fire breathing glands etc.
so no evidence, YET!!!!!!!!
very good point Crusader! I think believing is believing, and seeing is NOT believing. Peoples beliefs are what make people different though. So i guess you cant try and make someone believe there are/were dragons if they are just too stubborn
I think Tolkien may have known more than he knew that he knew *hmm*... maybe there really is/was a middle earth with hobbitses and elfs and dwarves... like it was said, maybe the hobbits just faded away along with the dwarves, and the elves just went to the undying lands! So it is the dominion of the elves.. hmm, all of this really is a lot to think about! When you think about it
"I think Tolkien may have known more than he knew that he knew *hmm*... maybe there really is/was a middle earth with hobbitses and elfs and dwarves... "
You may be right about that: Here's a quote from "On Fairy Stories" by JRR:
If Tolkien himself was under the influence of an elvish "glamour" then he would have imagined that he was creating Middle-earth mythology from his own imagination: when in "reality", he was being gifted with visions of the distant (pre-history) past. If this is true, then LOTR et al are not merely made up stories, but the myths the elves want us to hear. Why ? My personal reason for entertaining the possibility of this is that the Middle-earth sagas are apocalyptic in form: each major age ends in an apocalypse: and so will ours (if Judeo-Christian prophecy proves to be true): enjoying TLOTR prepares our minds for choosing our roles in the eventuality of our own apocalypse, ergo, it has a definite purpose in getting people to believe the unbelievable but true. And as this realates to the limited focus of this thread: dragons are positively inseparable from myth: if the elves and their "glamour" are real (though hidden), we must accept that dragons are as well.
I like the way you put that about prophecies etc.
the LOTR sagas are meant to be our pre-history, the ending of the third age in the book is the beginning of the age of men, from then on, most other species left the world, whcih lead on to toady. At the start of the hobbit, JRRT describes the hobbits and says that we dont see them much these day because they hear us coming and hide, or something similar. The point is middle earth is our earth, maybe not physically, but definately metaphorically. The beginning of the fourth age resembles man's progression as a social being and the tiumpsh over our negative aspects.
However it was also meant to symbolise the struggle against the industrial society, but that battle wont be won for a long long time.
So in summary, dragons do exist. lol.
ehhh i think iut's all a matter of opinion. seriously, though, do we really want dragons to exist? to burn down villages and maul people and whatnot? we have enough going wrong in the world as it is. besides, seeing is knowing, and right, liv, believing is believing. but as long as there is no concrete proof that dragons did exist, then science cant be proved otherwise.
hey the question is DID dragons exist, sure maybe they did, but now theyre all dead, so no problem. and as for science, its not a permanent thing, almost every breakthrough in science that is now gereally accepted truth had to distprove the current generally accepted truth.
Just look at how our modern interpretations of "dinosaurs" has changed over the last hundred years, and that's with the aid of modern science. Is it so puzzling that ancient and medieval people looked at those bones and tried to imagine what they were.
In the end it's just a matter of names: "dragons", "dinosaurs". The beasts did not know either of these names when they drew breath. And perhaps both interpretations are equally wrong...
Separate names with a comma.