Denethor getting beat up

Discussion in 'Movies' started by byzantine warrior, Dec 17, 2003.

  1. Shinagani

    Shinagani New Member

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    Aragorn withstood the lure of the ring on Amon Hen, with all most no hesitation, Gandalf too, Sam actually took posession of the ring, and he barely hesitated in giving it back...but there were some characters, Legolas and Gimli, for example never even had a chance to show their quality. Also in TTT:EE we see that Faramir's choice was not made out of lust for the ring as much as to please his father.

    I really don't think it's that they made the characters less noble, but the ring more evil. So people who can't just here someone say it's evil and understand that that's a bad thing(you know the people I'm talking about) will be able to see it's effect on people.
     
  2. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    But what PJ did makes more SENSE. He made the ring's properties CONSISTENT. The way Tolkien wrote the ring is very inconsistent. It makes much more sense if everyone is tempted rather than some characters randomly not tempted.
     
  3. Sabishii

    Sabishii Sindarin

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    True, it made sense, but it made everybody else seem more succumbing to the ring's will as well... For example, I found that the passages describing Faramir's willpower against the ring to really distinguish him from the rest of the characters (such as Denethor). The movies didn't do the best job they could in showing Aragorn's kingliness; while there was a slight but noticeable gap between him and a normal Man, I found other characters seemingly more noble than he in the movie, such as Theoden.
     
  4. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    Did you miss the scene where Faramir goes on a suicide mission to Osgiliath just because Denethor says so? If that's not noble I don't know what is....
     
  5. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    I thought that Faramir's character wasn't done Justice in the movie. Especially in TTT. He seemed more out for is own good at times than anything else.

    I agree that they should have shown Denethor with the Palantir, it would have explained alot, maybe it will be in the EE.
     
  6. Sabishii

    Sabishii Sindarin

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    No offense, but you are not noticing his callousness toward Frodo and Sam, and that he was entranced by the ring just like everybody else. To me (I dunno if this is the actor's or the director's fault) Faramir subservient and weak... Sure, he did what Denethor said, but he did that because Faramir's realization that his Daddy didn't love him made him not care about life anymore.
    I'm thinking Healing Houses scene might show more into the "better" aspect of Faramir's character, but I still feel that he was portrayed wrongly in his first scenes.
     
  7. Arwen

    Arwen Well-Known Member

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    It would be the writers that changed the character. But anyway- if you listented to the PJ's commentary on the TTT EE you would realize that Faramir's first scenes were done so to give the character a journey- he makes the choice his brother could not..which makes the character much more interesting to a movie audience. I don't know about you, but in ROTK he was one of my favorite characters because you felt SO BAD for him. How confusing would it be for a movie audience that doesn't know the books to see this human character, who is only a captain, blatantly not care about wanting the Ring. In the movie, you also don't want to overshadow Aragorn- because he needs to be the 1 you want to be king of Gondor, not Faramir.
     
  8. Sabishii

    Sabishii Sindarin

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    Heh, I wasn't talking about his script but rather the way he was portrayed (facial expression, body language, etc.). But anyway- I guess PJ interpreted the book differently... Actually, I think it's just a dumbing down of the plot. In the original story (I refrain from referring to "the book", but rather the story it's trying to tell) Faramir wasn't supposed to be pitied, but rather to be respected. I don't know about how he would confuse the audience, as there are many other scenes which would even more confuddling. You say "he makes the choice his brother could not", but I remember that his choice was taken away from him - Faramir didn't have a choice when Osgiliath was attacked and the hobbits escaped. With all due respect to the original character, the Faramir of the movies would have taken the hobbits straight to Denethor had not this happened. You could bring up that he let the hobbits escape because he was kind enough to do so, but the movie did not show everybody else being less gentle.
    IMO, most importantly, Faramir's refusal of the ring is supposed to be a direct foil to Boromir's desire for it. Where Boromir represented corrupted pride, Faramir represented pure humbleness. In the movie, Faramir's shown to be just another Man.
     
  9. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    I dont think so, in the films i respected faramirs character, in TTT i dont think he was entranced by the ring like everyone else, sure there was the whispering ring talk that we always get, but he snaps ou of that. Think about it, if he was entranced he would have wanted the ring to himself, but instead he was going to sent it to gondor. This shows his desire to please his father and his nobility to ignore the rings power. And at the end of TTT all sams speech does is make him realise that everything isnt about helping his father and so he lets them go.
    And in ROTK faramir isnoble yet again, he fights in osgiliath, and he returns out of wanting not to disobey his father. if he didnt go, how noble would he be then? he gets respect for denying self-preservation and going on a suicide mission. Faramirs character is just that as it is in the book.

    He wasnt just another man, he was one of the only ones to ignore the rings power, he was a good fighter and a good captain for what he did in osgiliath etc.
     
  10. Sabishii

    Sabishii Sindarin

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    Well, the thing is, Faramir doesn't appear noble as much as he appears subservient... He doesn't bow down to the ring, yet he's going to give it to Gondor. I didn't like this because Faramir did exactly the same thing Boromir did here; in the original story he's portrayed almost as almost a complete opposite... We don't get to see how Faramir is a romantic and a scholar (am I wrong?) yet Boromir is the manly warrior. He obeys his father just because he wants his father to love him, though I guess it's the same in the books.
     
  11. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    I HATED GANDALF HITTING DENETHOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It totally sucked, half the theater was chearing and I booed, the whole way that they showed denethor was a piece of crap, I don't even like the actor that they picked to play him carven ivory face whatevert. John Noble has a flabby wrinkly face and it is not the Ivory. Plus i HATED the eating scene it made me sick. And the death scene it would have been fine if after faramir is pushed off, if deny had just layed down like in the book. But no, he has to runoff and jump into the freaking city, that was just stupid.
    Simply put I did not like the way deny was portrayed at all. He is the worst picked, looking and acting character yet. Although the rest of the movie awesome with just minor things here and there.
     
  12. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    true, not altogether tactical, but true nonetheless.
     
  13. Scrinlord

    Scrinlord Dark Lord of Guppies

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    I agree that the portrayal of Deny was poor, but honostly, to a movie audience who has not read the book, I dont know if there is any real way to portray his decent into insanity on screen the way it happened in the books. The way it was show in the movie, at least you did know that he was not all the way their, even if they overdid it a little.
     
  14. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    I think it should be better if we at least see the palantir explaination in the EE.
     
  15. havelockploz

    havelockploz With a preliminary 'P'

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    Too true.
    Another thing I want to see in the ee is the Faramir/Eowyn thing. That would have been really good. the only indication you get in the movie is them standing arm in arm at aragorn's coronation.
    I reckon Faramir is one of the best characters, and he is noble.
     
  16. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    I really do hope that bit is put in, it adds so much more to the two characters of eowyn and faramir.
     
  17. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    thank you finrod :monkeydan
     
  18. Gûd Daedheloth

    Gûd Daedheloth Foe of Morgoth's Realm

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    The Houses of Healing have been guaranteed to be in the extended cut.
     
  19. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    well thank you Gud, that's a relief. there's a lot that I would like to see in the extended version of the movie that I missed in the theatrical version.