Crusades and Templars, their effect on the medieval society.

Discussion in 'Medieval Boards' started by Omega3R, Sep 8, 2006.

  1. Omega3R

    Omega3R Mi ne sijemo.

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    What do you know about the Crusades, and knights of that age?

    Since this is a subforum dedicated to the Middle ages, it would be fair to have a topic about that part of our history which effected us in so many ways. Let us reveal in which ones.
     
  2. OrcShaman

    OrcShaman Star Trek addict

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    So, about what do you want us to talk about, the Crusades in general or only the Templars and their history?
     
  3. Omega3R

    Omega3R Mi ne sijemo.

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    in general.
    even their history, if you'd like.

    for instance.
    to start a conversation.

    did you know that crusaders brought arabian science back to europe, and thus gothic architecture was developed?
     
  4. OrcShaman

    OrcShaman Star Trek addict

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    Some general facts about the beginings of the crusades :

    In November 27th 1095, in the council of Clairmont, Pope Urban the 2nd condamnes the corupt clergy but also the knights (like the king of France, Phillip I) wich, as brigands, are breaking "God's Peace" that, for a century, the church is trying to mantain. At the same time he offers them a mean to obtain forgivness and save their souls: the fight for Jerusalem.
    Here's a quote from Foucher de Chartres' Historia Hierosolymitana: "Should go and fight against the infidels [...] thoses who untill now eganged in personal and abusive wars, bringing grief to the christians. Let them be from now on knights of Christ thoses that were brigands! Let them fight justly, against the barbarians, thoses that untill now fought against their brothers and their parents!" (well, it's my translation, i hope it's accurate :))

    Anyway, under the command of Adhemar de Monteil, bishop of Puy and Count Raymond IV de Toulouse, "the Holy Expedition" heads for Jerusalem, and their number grows by the day; the crusaders masacre jews in the towns of the Rhine valley, pillage hungarian and byzantine lands, defeat the seldjukid turks at Doryleea (1097), take the city of Antioch in 1098 and finally, in July 13th 1099 they enter Jerusalem.

    Supported by the fleets of Pisa, Genoa and, later, Venice, the number of crusaders in the Holy Land grows, and in 1104 and 1108 they are able to conquer the main ports of the area, Acre and Tripoli. After strenghtening their presence in the region, the crusaders are forming 4 states:

    -Edessa, in the north, half french, half armenian, founded by Baudoin de Boulogne (the brother of the first king of Jerusalem)
    - The Principat of Antioch, in northern Syria
    - Tripoli
    - the Kingdom of Jerusalem, fom Lebanon to Sinai, ruled by Godefroy de Boullion

    Hope this wasn't too boring:)

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2006
  5. Omega3R

    Omega3R Mi ne sijemo.

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    the fourth king of Jerusalem, Badouin IV., had leprosy. his first limb fell ov at the age of sixteen, and as he lead the battle at the age of i believe twenty-seven, he simply fell apart.

    isn't it funny?
     
  6. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    That sounds a bit far fetched to me. However truth is often stranger than fiction. But I don't think leprosy actually causes the entire body to collapse like Lego!
     
  7. Winterfell Soldier

    Winterfell Soldier Lost Soldier of Frost

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    I doubt that arabic science helped develop Gothic architecture, and the Templars were more of a company, it was actually very wealthy even though its knights were seen as poor and humble, they helped the poor of europe and the settlers a lot.


    This is a little off-topic but I noticed that orc-shaman you are also from romania, what part if I may ask? I am from Bucharest.
     
  8. Thalador

    Thalador Marshal of the West

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    That's kind of ironic, considering that the order was destroyed because Philip IV and Pope Clement V coveted their wealth. They were arrested, charged with various crimes such as sodomy and spitting on the cross, and tortured until they admitted to them. After that they were killed. After the order was disbanded many former Templars (those who outside of France escaped most of the brutality) joined other orders such as the Hospitallers. So basically, piety and nobility lost out to avarice once again.

    The sad thing is, nobody really knows what happened to them. It's such a black event in the history of Christianity that the fate of the Templars is never covered in textbooks.
     
  9. OrcShaman

    OrcShaman Star Trek addict

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    The main accusations were: sodomy (the main evidence presented was a Templar emblem showing two knights riding on one horse. It seems that the real meaning of that was to symbolise the ideal of poverty that the knights were trying to achieve); devil worshiping (it was said that they were worshiping a demonic figure called Baphomet); rejection of the cross and paganism (some templars admited, under torture, that during their ritual of acceptance into the order, they were forced to spit on the cross and present the grand master with the "kiss of shame", on the lips, genitalia and anus).

    Some of the accounts (mainly about the existance of an occult "rite of passage"), allthough exagerated, may contain an ounce of truth. It seems that the Templar rituals were indeed influenced by prechristian (or "pagan", if you like) oriental traditions (with roots in mithraism or even older); such an example of oriental influence can be found even in the role and structure of the order, that, some historians believe, are very similar to the muslim ribat.
     
  10. Omega3R

    Omega3R Mi ne sijemo.

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    well...
    his biographer wrote that about him. i also doubt it to be true, though, in the middle ages it was more important to sound bombastic than to be truthfull.
    what leprosy causes, i don't really know... it seems that the body is really falling apart, but still... i'm no doctor, i don't know.
     
  11. Omega3R

    Omega3R Mi ne sijemo.

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    the templars were located in the temple, where it is said that they dug deep to find the holy grail or the lost arc. but what they were really doing, is learning the science from the arabs. it is so, because the church was aware that the arabian science was far more advance than european, but was still unable to say it in public because of the very war- so they learned and collected knowledge in secret.

    when you go to the cathedral in chartres, france, the first gothic cathedral ever, you will see a little picture of knights carrying a chest, and it sais: ARCHA CEDERIS- you'll work with the arc or something like that. it is supposed to be the lost arc of solomon, with two tables with the ten commandments written by god himself. on the second picture, located near to the first, it is written also something in latin, but it sais something like- ARC HAS PASSED THROUGH HERE.
    it is a bit irrational to believe that they acctualy found the lost arc and brought it there. it would suggest that the templars did come in with an arc, or with a chest, but it was certainly not the dark chest of wonders or the lost magical arc, but a chest with the knowledge they brought from palestina.
     
  12. OrcShaman

    OrcShaman Star Trek addict

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    Actually, no.

    Their headquarter in Jerusalem was indeed located where today the Al Aqsa Mosq stands.

    But the rest is just part of the Templar myth. Ofcourse, just like the other warrior monks that were stationed in the area, they brought to Europe stuff they have learned from the muslims.The grail and the lost arc thing is just legend.

    The Order's primordial role was to defend the pilgrims on their way to the Holy Land. Later, they were given properties and certain rights that made it easyer for them to go into business and grow incredible rich and powerfull. For example, before their downfall, the Templars were running the main "banking" system in Europe. So, their preoccupations were as secular as it gets.

    All this templar mystique appeared when different "secret" organisations, interested in the occult/spiritualism (sp?), claimed that they were the keepers of the templar traditions.
     
  13. Omega3R

    Omega3R Mi ne sijemo.

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    it's all stupidity, all those organizations. templars were no special knights in any way, but there is something more to them.

    al-aqsa is built on the former temple. that's why.
    but see.
    there were nine of them. palestina is a rather big country. in the beginning they were no knights, because they had no oath to the order, thy swore to no fidelity. and carried NO weapons. it's a bit illogical that NINE of them would protect the pilgrims, isn't it?

    and when they came to jerusalem, on the former temple was built a church, the holy grave cathedral, i believe, with it's priests inside. jerusalem's king brutally sent those priests away, and gave the church and real-estate to templars.

    it makes the official story a bit illogic.

    i'll look up the story a bit more when i get time, and i'll write more about it. with more accurate facts and dates.
     
  14. OrcShaman

    OrcShaman Star Trek addict

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  15. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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  16. Drac Critius

    Drac Critius Radical Subjectivist

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    ^ I saw that one a couple months ago.

    I kind of gained a whole new perspective on Muslims after watching this program. I never new they were so compassionate.

    -DC
     
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    hmmm... why exactly is everyone always talking about the Templar Knights. Yes, they had great influence in the crusades, which lead to favourism from Rome. Yes, they were increadibly rich, due to good business deals, resulting from that favourism from Rome. And yes, for some reason they were accused of herercy. Why? they got too powerfull. The Templar Knights had so much wealth and power that they could rival Rome. And that was something the Mother Church couldn't accept...

    But the question remains why all the attention goes to the Templar Knights. I mean, during that time, a lot of other Catholic orders presented themselves. Like the German Order, which could rival the power of the Templars in Northern Europe (they got offered Poland for services to Rome, Christianity and the German people). And at the end of the Crusading period, the Jesuits were formed, with their "Special obedience to the Pope". And still, all medieval myths seem to flock around the Templars... funny.
     
  18. Thanatos

    Thanatos Lord of Death

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    The Templars were one of the more mysterious orders that emerged at that time. Although similar to many organizations, we know a great deal about most of the other orders during that period. However, there are many things about the Templars that were either lost in time, or never preserved in the first place. It is that mystery that drives us. The unknown attracts us. That is why people are fascinated by theories of Atlantis, but could care less about cities such as Jericho, ancient locations, filled with great history and knowledge. Thus, the mysterious air of the Templars is what often makes them the sole topic of converstion amidst folks.
     
  19. bloodfiredeath

    bloodfiredeath Die by the Sword

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    Whenever people talk of the Crusades, unfortunately the Templars always seem to take the spotlight. But as I see it the main aspect of the entire sorid affair was the rise of the Mameluks under Baibers(?). This force of once slaves managed to beat the Mongols, assassins, ottomans and ultimately massacred the christians in the frankish kingdom of Outremer. The out come of this was the spread of Islam and the eventual downfall of the Byzantine empire, and it could be said that the only reason the mongols never invaded western europe proper was due to the power of the Mameluks in that region holding them at bay. Of course they are not as mysterious as the templars, so are not as interesting to some, but they changed the face of eastern europe and the crusades.
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I have many books about the Crusades and the Templars.My favorite Knights though were the Knights of St.John or Hospitalliers.I like these guys more for many reasons!;)

    The Templars?Hmm...they were the first bankers in history from what I know.I mean the first really organized bankers!:p

    And scum as well!As a Byzantine guy allow me not to like the Latins so much.After all the Fourth Crusade was the one that destroyed us and led to the final destruction of our Empire from the Ottoman Turks in 1453.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2006