Crazy Christian Article

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Crouton, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Check it out: http://www.oodegr.com/english/anatolikes/Paisios_powers_darkness.htm

    This is a story I had read in a book about Elder Paisios and that boy was mentioned as well in another book I had read:

    young sorcerer from Tibet once visited me at my cell and told me a lot of things about his life. This child, no sooner was he weaned from his mother than his father dedicated it - at the age of three - to a group of thirty, high-ranking sorcerers in Tibet, in order to initiate it in their art. He reached the eleventh degree of sorcery - the twelfth being the highest. At the age of sixteen he left Tibet and went to Sweden, to see his father. While there, he happened to meet an Orthodox priest - a very devout one - and invited him to a conversation. In the room where they had sat down to talk, he began to do some of his magic, in order to show the priest his powers. He invoked an initial(1). demon, Menas, and said to it: "I want water". A glass rose up from the kitchen, it went to the tap on its own, the tap came on, it filled the glass with water, then it passed through the glass screen and entered the room they were in. He took the glass and drank the water. Then he "showed" the priest all the universe: the skies, the stars... He used magic of the fourth degree and intended to continue, up to the eleventh degree. He asked the priest what he thought of all those things.

    "I was ready" he said, "to kill him if he dared to insult my Satan".

    But the priest said nothing to him. Then the young man said to the priest:

    "Why don't you conjure up some signs also?"

    "Because my God is humble", the priest replied, and took out a crucifix which he had with him and asked the young man to hold it in his hand.

    "Now try your magic again," he said.

    The young man invoked Menas the initial demon once more, but Menas stood trembling, not daring to approach. He then invoked Satan, but the same thing happened: he could see the Crucifix and he wouldn't come near; he only told the young man to get up and leave for Tibet. The young man then broke out and cursed him: "I just realized" he said, "that your vast power is a pathetic weakness!"

    He was afterwards catechized a little by the good priest, who spoke to him about the Holy Lands, the Holy Mountain etc.. So he left Sweden and went to Jerusalem where he witnessed the Holy Light. From there, he went on to America to give the Satanists there a piece of his mind and tell them to change their ways.... God had turned him into the best kind of preacher... From there, he came to the Holy Mountain.

    The good Lord helped him scandalously, because he had been unjustly treated from a very young age. But you too should also say a prayer for him, because the sorcerers with all their demons are waging war against him. If they attack me whenever he comes for my help, just imagine how much more they are attacking him. Priests would read exorcisms over him, and his hands would split open and bleed profusely... The poor child... he is being horribly tormented by the demons, whereas initially, when he was friends with them, they didn't harass him, but only helped him and served him. Pray for him. However, he too needs to be extremely cautious, because the Gospel says that "when an unclean spirit departs from a man, it goes through dry places, seeking rest and finding none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first..." (2)
     
  2. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    OMG, it is no wonder you don't make it with the ladies.
     
  3. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    I don't consider paranormal case accounts rigid evidence, but whatever floats your boat I guess. What year did this story you posted happen? Why are people in Tibet worshiping sects of religion outside of their normal cultural religions? I'm sure these elders had good intentions, but could they have mixed up what they were seeing?

    Do you trust the eye account of another mortal person? Have you seen any evidence of black magic, or demons yourself? Don't think I'm challenging your faith though, I'm just trying to wrap my head around idea of demons being real in Christianity.
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    [​IMG]

    More flame please!
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    If you...lived in Greece you would hear and know things,saints here do perform miracles,people do find help from Saints and Holy Theotokos the Mother Of God and from Christ the Lord.There are countless experiences of normal every day people about things they've witnessed that you would consider supernatural.Especially if you went to Mount Athos,I haven't been there but so many people have had experiences there.There are elders who can even call you by your name without ever hearing or meeting you,knowing your heart and your life.The stories and witnesses are just so many and not just in Greece,in Russia too,in Romania,Bulgaria,Serbia....I believe the Orthodox Christian faith is the one and real faith.
     
  6. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    How have I not come into contact with the supernatural, or miracles here then? Have I just not lived long enough? What even constitutes a miracle? You still haven't answered if you yourself has come into contact with any of this? Don't feel like I'm trying to batter you with questions though, answer what you can if you want.

    And on the count of it being the one true faith, I know this is an entirely different debate from supernatural stuff, but what about people from all the other religions that claim to have experienced the supernatural and see their own paths as the one true way? What makes them wrong? Or is it a "one God behind many masks" kind of scenario?
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Yes,I have asked for help from the Lord and the Mother of God and the saints a lot of times and I have found helped.And in times that you can't just say that it's a coinsidence.

    As for you...I don't know,maybe you don't realize that something comes from God?Maybe it's there but you don't see it.Maybe you don't want to admit it.This is the age of Skepticism,but miracles do happen.Saints do appear,God does help people who ask help.

    When it comes to foreigners I don't know how they will be judged.That's not for me to know.

    I just wish I could find some books in english,for example about Elder Paisios and send them to you.You would understand a lot.I'm not a scholar and I'm not a Theologist to debate on this subject very well,it's far easier for you to find answers in such books.
     
  8. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    But I can't find the answers there because it is based on the account of somebody else. For something to be part of my reality I have to perceive it. So far my perceptions have put together an extraordinarily mundane world. Lots of the time people will account things like avoiding accidents as miracles when I just consider them ordinary physics principles.

    When I was younger and more devout I would pray for the sake of others but no good would ever come, now I've just come to accept that it is burdening to ask for help, and if I want anything done I should do it myself.
     
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I don't know what's going on in your case,whether you were praying wrong or maybe there was a specific reasons that your prayers were not answered.Maybe you've had God intervene in your life a lot of times and you always regarded it as "luck" or "coinsidence"...maybe it's because you live a life without God.If that's your choice then other people in your family or friends can pray for God to make you understand the truth.

    You have to believe with your heart not with you skepticism,in time you will see that when you read about the lives of saints and about miracles,you will see that your mind too will agree.
     
  10. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Does God not respect doubt or skepticism at all then? I have good intentions for the future, but I can't make something central in my life that is based on only faith. And if I were to have faith I would probably cut out the parts that contradict what I've already perceived and try to find a more reasonable explanation why there is a discrepancy.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I personally suggest you start reading a bit about the lives of saints,about Elders from Mount Athos and in order to convince you I can personally show you many things foretold by Russian or Greek or Serbian monks,Elders or Saints that came true.Prophecy is one way to believe I guess.The things orthodox monks or saints foresee are not vague and talk about the future.Did you know for example than many Russian saints like Saint John of Kronstdant and many others foretold of the coming of commusism,of the evil that would befall on the country and that it communism would fall? Far before communism was evident.Simply there is so much prophecy that came true that you can't say "hey man that's a lucky guess" or "oh that's justa prediction".I could just...c/p you lots and lots of things foretold by Orthodox fathers and saints.

    And of miracles and of stories of ordinary people that witnessed miracles in their lives.

    But do you want it?Or do you prefer to sit down and say "oh well I don't believe in that so I won't bother,but I'm looking for God"
     
  12. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    I'm in the mindset where if there is a God I don't understand why they would veil themselves behind faith instead of being open and perceivable to all. I can handle my own life and I know God already has no interest in helping me so I won't reach out, if God wants me God can reach out to me instead.
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    First of all God doesn't want to force people to believe in Him.If I remember correctly Elder Paisios had said that God wants people to believe in Him because He is good.Also,being a just a human being and saying "I can handle my own life" is kind of arrogant.And saying that God has no interest in helping you,that's wrong.You sound like those emo kids who blame everything on God and nag.When something good happens in their life they forget everything and when something bad happens they blame God.And let me ask you something,isn't YOUR job to reach out to God?You're the human,you're just a weak person just like all of us,isn't it YOUR job to try and reach out for the Lord?

    And maybe God did reach out to you and you ignored it.Maybe you ignored all the chances that you had or all the signs that had been shown to you.

    However...when what has been foretold about the next big war happens,people will grab Christians by the hand and ask them to talk to them about Christ.Like Elder Paisios had said...then there will be one Church and the gospel will be taught in the entire world.
     
  14. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I dislike the concept that in order to believe in god I must set aside all concept of my self esteem and leave all of that side of myself up to god. It's a very dangerous move because it aims to undercut a persons self confidence to the point where they have no personal sense of their own achievements and can only assume that all good in their life comes from god and that all evil comes from either lack of faith in god or the devil.

    I dislike this also because does it not also go against the very grain of the concept of the individuality and independence that god supposedly gave to Mankind in the first place. The gift of the option of choice surely means that god is not up there setting down plans for us all that we should follow but has instead released us to follow our own plans.



    Also I even more dislike the concept that god is in direct control of another persons life - because in the practical world that this type of belief operates "god" being in control means one must listen only to his messengers which in effect puts the church in full control of your life.
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I'm not telling you not to have self-confidence but you have to be humble.Having someone say that he doesn't need God and that he can make everything on his own,that's arrogance.That's hybris.Man can't do anything without God.A person must be humble and love God.But trust God with your life.Ask for help,repent,ask forgiveness,confess.Repentance and confession,remember that.It's something good that you are doing for your life.
     
  16. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Saying that you can do nothing without god is not being humble about ones talent. Saying that god is the cause and source of all that is good and all that is skilled in a person does that not speak to you that it totally renders humanity without any purpose, choice, reason or design on existence?
     
  17. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Thanks for the personal attacks when I'm just trying to get a grip on what you are talking about, and answering your questions, it really opens me up to faith when I'm told I'm hubris riddled and selfish because I don't reach out to things I can't perceive.

    Lol me arrogant, I just don't see why I need to reach out to the divine. If I were faithful I'd still avoid asking favors from God because I don't like wasting time, even if it is the time of extra planar super powers.

    I may be weak and pathetic and dumb but at least I know without a doubt that I'm real. Thanks for calling me an emo kid that blames God for everything too, it really helps my void self-esteem. You can't just append all the good acts to God either, if he is the creator he is tied to all the results of his creation like any engineer should be. God can have good intention and do good and bad, hah, his universe led to my creation, and we all know I'm a mistake.

    God hasn't given me chances, I've been branded through objective number systems to classify the masses that are man made, in order to see if they are fit to have the goals they want, or if they are allowed to just live a boring life giving nothing worthwhile to the future. God can't intervene and change documents or inject scientific knowledge into my head. It is my burden and mine alone.

    Hundreds of godless men before me have built and innovated to make a better world without submitting themselves to God, not doing it for themselves, but for a better Earth. I'd die more happy knowing I left behind a better world than knowing I secured my spot in his Heaven because I know that Earth will always have suffering.
     
  18. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Man can do from the best things to the worst.But man needs guidance.Saying that you don't need God in your life...that's arrogant.Because in the end who do you think you are?Just a fragile human,like an ant in a gigantic beach.How can man live his life without God?How can humanity progress without faith and the guidance of God?It will faulter and fall into immorality,decadence and decay.God is Life.The source.A baterry can go on for a certain amount of time on its own,then it goes dead.God is like the source that gives this let's say "battery" life to live.Eternal life.

    Seriously the way you guys see me as the weird one,I see you,it's very weird foreigners go like "Oh no I'm an atheist" or "Oh no I'm an agnostic" or "Oh no I'm spiritual but not religious".All that stuff are just so weird and pardon me,but stupid,on this side of the world.Agnostic?Spiritual but not religious?For us all that sounds like people having an inferiority complex trying to look cool and at the same time solve the problem of religion not being tailored in their own likings so they try to take the responsibility of having to obey rules and live with God in a certain way,off.
     
  19. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    I'm for the most part moral (I guess anybody would say that about themselves), I shun decadence, and I think sustainability is important in everything. I don't care for the idea of eternal life, I can die and end happy knowing that other people can be happy and enjoy themselves in the horribly bleak world. Technology and living conditions improve for people still today because of people who have faith in God, and don't. God isn't needed to make a better world, but I guess some people say he helps them, so good on them I guess.

    And I'm also agnostic, and there is nothing cool about an inferiority complex, if you tried one out you'd really realize it quick.

    And as religion has aged tons of people have tailored it including holy people, who are still at their core just people, saying that one book holds the definite knowledge of something as powerful as a God seems just as arrogant to me as hubris does.
     
  20. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Foin - there is a difference between the areas of moral and spiritual guidance - and the concept of ones own skills choices and talents.

    You seem to be jointly saying that humanity requires god in order to make all the choices in life. If god is the end answer of every choice and the only possible answer at the end of every choice least you fall from the road can you not see that this actually removes all concept of choice. Furthermore not only does it remove all concept of choice but it also removes all concept of independence from the person. It slaves the person to god, but also does far worse because it undermines that persons self confidence and sense of self worth to the point where they are unable to see any substance to themselves that is from themselves.

    From my point of view is a very crafty way to undermine a persons individual self confidence to the point where they become voluntary slaves under the guidance of another person or entity. That doesn't really seem like much of a god to choose to follow nor one that would be much worth following if the end result is slavery.

    It also aims to split the world into a moralistic good or bad domain - that's fine in a computer game you can do that just fine, but it doesn't work in the real world and it further fails to work when one is presented with multiple players in an event and multiple end paths.
     
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