Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Jun 21, 2007.
I'd forgotten how entertaining you two are
Ah stop hiding behind your finger!
*puts finger down*
ROFL, this is genius! Thanks Aclhy, cause you made us wake up the neighbours because of our laughter! lol, really that must be the title of the year! Anyway, you wonder what excuse the church the came up with, since this prophecy didn't come true. Is it like the creation of earth a metaphor now? Is it not to be taken litteraly, or do they think he'll drop by the next millienium. Well about Nostradamus, I've heard some weird things about it though. You know he looked in a bowl of water for his prophecies, to encourage it. The most weird thing that makes me wonder is about his grave. Gravediggers tried to dig up his body and he held a plaque or it was on top of his body, where the exact date was on, when the graverobbers digged him up. Just read it in a book. I guess that isn't proof. But it is interesting though.
Woohoo Anakin got happy!
I don't know Alchemist and Anakin why don't you tell me?You seem to be the ones who know everything,right?
Some respect in what you are saying would be nice.
The fire will start from a small crisis / war cry is coming from Bulgaria.
Russia suddenly invades Turkey / And like a gushing waterstream conquers all of Persia.
And going forth unstoppable towards Palestine / Antichrist wants to become god in this world.
Then the nations of the West all come together / woe to the nations of the North, they all turn to dust.
With great rage does the bear defend in Turkey/ which did great injustice to Greece, and turns into fire.
Things that are happening today:
1.Russia-Bulgaria-Greece have signed an agreement for the Burgas-Alexandroupoli gas pipe which will transfer gas from Russia to Europe.Lots of money invested on that and it is in the interests of Russia to keep it that way.
2.Turkey has re-affirmed the "casus belli" if Greece expands her naval borders to 12 miles.
3.Turkey wants to start looking for oil in the Aegean.Such a thing,when it happened last time about 20 years ago,almost led to an open war which was prevented at the last minute.
4.Remember the "conquers all of Persia" above?This is from yahoo news:
Russia's U.N. envoy Vitaly Churkin said Moscow could back a sanctions resolution the Western powers have drafted and which they want to discuss in the U.N. Security Council this week.
"If Iran in the next few days does not stop the enrichment activities of its heavy water project then yes, Russia ... has taken upon itself certain commitments... to support the resolution that has been drafted in the past month," Churkin told reporters via a video link from New York.
5.The Balkans are like a pot that is about to burst any time.Turkey backs Albania and Bosnia,Greece and Russia back Serbia and Bulgaria.
Now,I know that you are logical people or at least you try to be,so I'm telling you all that to start thinking "what if?".Because we see that little by little things are coming to that,to what has been foretold by these fathers and saints years ago.You don't have to see it from an arrogant point of view,you shouldn't be "prejudiced" against the fact that it was been foretold by Orthodox fathers and saints,but you should just check it,read it and watch the news to see if things are going that way and I personally think things are going that way.That's why I posted all that.
I am new here, so it feels quite awkward..anyway i just wanted to say that im greek too, im orthodox too and i have grown up with the stories of Constantinople coming back to us and so on..
I believe in God, but as the years passed i felt that there was something wrong with all this religion thing. If you asked me (which i m sure you wont..) i don t want neither the City to be burned for three days and nights, nor Turkey to be wiped out from the map. I have been to Constantinople and there are so many people from so many countries, and i have been to Turkey and people there are not so different from us. I mean in a way that all people are alike..none born to be a sinner.. every nation did really awful things to others (including Greeks..)
I also believe that there can be only one God and i don't think that he has "favorite children"... i don't think he says: "my Turkish children have been really naughty and i will punish them while the Greeks will get their revenge soon.."
seriously i don't think it works like that.
I believe there is only one God and religions are from people and for people. It is a way to express your belief in a way that best suits you.
The wars are for the governments to blame, God has nothing to do with that.
It would be awful to say to a little child from Turkey that its God decision to kill his parents, his friends, burn his house and his country...Thats not what Jesus said when he talked about love, faith and belief.
Thats how i feel about the subject and Foinika (i love your name ^^) i don't imply in any way that you are happy that people will die or something like that. I understand that you wanted us to get familiar with these prophecies.
Well, let's break this down.
The word "Tsar" is derived from "Caesar" (Julius Caesar), as much as Kaisar (Emperor in several languages) is. It's important to understand what this title means; apart from "ruler over Kings", which is the normal description, it also is the title of the King and Political leader of the World, elected by God to rule in his place. This is normally constituted by a Pope, who is the spiritual leader much in the same way.
It makes sense to predict that a forreign political leader appointed by God etc. will deliver Istanbul from the Muslims.
However, we all have to realise that the line of Tsars has been broken. The prophacy is void.
Still, should we hope for Istanbul to be conquered once more by yet another force? I mean, it's been part of the Ottoman empire - or what's left of it - for 5 an a half centuries. Shouldn't we be beyond such after all this time? I remember we had this discussion once before (check the history of this subsection) - it turned out to be a hot topic - for those close and involved. I suppose the rest of the world merely recognises the issue as a dormant volcano, best not to be touched and left alone. Status quo.
Ow, and I was looking into this on Wikipedia; St. Methodius of Patara doesn't show up. Via Patara a sanctified Methodius of Olympus shows up. There are some written works of his quoted there, which seem to deal with theological matters. Notably, an apocalypical work in his name is not attributed to him.
Leo IV, too has his own Wiki page, which makes no mentions of prophecies. However, a quick google on the matter reveals a volume on history, which says:
My dear Turambar the line of the Tsar's isn't broken.There are descendants of the Romanov.
I could say that this last Orthodox Tsar or Emperor or King be he of Greek origin or Russian or whatever would not need to be of royal ancestry.However it is mentioned in 2-3 prophecies that he will be a descendand of a king by his mother's side.
A mighty Tsar' will be placed upon the Throne by God Himself. He will be a great reformer, and he will be strong in the Orthodox faith. He will cast down the unfaithful hierarchs of the Church. He himself will be an outstanding personality, with a pure and holy soul. He will possess a strong will. He will be of the Romanov Dynasty, through the maternal line. He will be God's Chosen One, obedient to the Lord in all things. He will transform Siberia. But this Russia will exist only for a very short time. Soon thereafter will come to pass that of which the Apostle John speaks in his "Apocalypse."
From http://www.stjohnthebaptist.org.au/articles/twoprophecies.html written from what you understand before or during the October Revolution or during communism.
As for Saint Methodios of Patara and the prophecy that Emperor Leo VI the Wise wrote down,I have to say that Wikipedia doesn't have everything,so don't expect to find much about that on that site.
Edit:On another note,one remarkable thing that I didn't know until a few months ago was that Ioannis Makrygiannis one of the purest heroes of the Greek Revolution of 1821 and later a general of the Revolution(and I do stress pure in character)had seen a vision or a dream that looked like a vision.In that let's say dream,there were many armies of various nations in Constantinople and the city was being returned to the Greeks and there was an Orthodox king.Now I have to find more information about that.If I do I will post it here.Ok?
And there's also an inscription in the tomb of Saint Constantine the Great that(like mentioned above that the Ismailites will be destroyed by a northern leader etc.)the city(Constantinople)will be ruled by 4(or 3)pronoites".I can't translate the word in english exactly but it means something like "caretakers".Elder Paisios had said that the City will be ruled by Greeks,Europeans and Russians.But it will be returned to us after the war,not because the Russians love us,but as a solution to their problems.
Heh - as all European royal families are interconnected, there's always the "maternal line". Prime suspect would be the Windsors? As I said, the true line is broken, much in the Machiavellian tradition (who advises so for this specific reason). No source is mentioned on the site you quoted, which is a shame. Please note that the Internet, without tracable source, is a very untrustworthy source of information; I could make (up) a prophecy and post it on the internet, if you don't mind me saying so.
Of course, I was hoping you would provide a counter-arguement against these two saints not being the autors of said prophecies. I would say their chances look bleak regarding my previous post. Sure, Wiki doesn't have everything and it has reliability issues on its own; but please note that it takes a special position regarding that issue, as all people have the right and chance to edit.
Everything you might wanna read is here:
Edit:I had read those two prophecies in another site 1-2 years ago or more,but I can't find it right now.There was mention about the authors,but I can't say for sure who wrote those two prophecies.But they were written by Russian Starstsi.
This might as well interest you:
From Instructions and Prophesies
of Father Seraphim of Vyrytsa.
The Holy Elder could see not only the future lives of people, but also the future of our church and the country. The witness to it is his poetry written in 1939:
The storm will pass over the land of Russia God will forgive the sins of Russian men The Holy Cross in its majestic splendor Will shine above the churches' domes again The bells will ring awakening from horror From sins to salvation The holy houses of the Lord will open their doors And faith in God will bring us all together. .....
[B]One time to answer his spiritual son's question about the future of Russia, the Elder suggested to him to look out the window. The man saw through the window the Gulf of Finland and many ships under different flags in it. "What does this mean?"- He asked the Father. The Elder answered: "The time will come when spiritual life in Russia will blossom." Many churches and monasteries will be opened, even people of other religions will come here to be baptized in Orthodoxy. Although this will not last long -maybe fifteen years, after which Antichrist will come". [/B]
"Many countries will assail Russia, but She will hold out, although She will loose a major part of its territory. The war mentioned by the prophets and the Holy Gospel, will cause the unification of mankind. People in the world will understand that they are moving to a dead end, destruction of everything live, and will eventually elect a Common Government - this will be a precursor of the enthronement of Antichrist. Then, the persecution of Christians will start all over, people will flee to Russia in huge numbers, and one will need to go with the first, for many who stay will perish."
If anything, I think this shows a nation (ethnicity) trapped in the vices of Geopolitical turmoil. On its own, it makes very little sense as, for instance, the Roman Church is currently very open towards the Eastern Orthodoxies. And it would take the Devil indeed to have Israel (Jews?) force Turkey to do anything at all.
There is no predicting the future and, as long as the many ethnicities on the Balkan don't learn to live together (or at least side-by-side), I wouldn't be surprised if the next world war would spark in that very region. War talk like this could well be a self-fulfilling prophecy (one way or another), you know.
Still, why do you seem to be so obsessed with these prophecies. I know you are a devout Orthodox yourself and take this very serious indeed. However, don't you think it's dangerous to be fixed upon such religious guesswork? Especially as the relation in this specific region are always showing signs of fragility...
The Roman Church open to Eastern Orthodoxy is just something tricky and wrong.The Popes always wanted us to succumb and to unite with them under their own terms.Such a thing we will never accept.The Popes have always been the ones moving the "puppets" behind the scenes to minimize the role of Orthodoxy and they have been responsible for many wars.One big example was the Fourth Crusade when in 1204 the Crusaders sacked Constantinople and established a feudal empire in most parts of the Byzantine Empire.
As for Israel and Turkey,guess what they are best friends and Turkey is the only ally of Israel in the region(apart from USA of course).It's not a coincidence that every time there was a war between Israel and the Arabic countries Turkey moved its army to its borders with Syria.And it's also not a coincedence that Turkey recently bought 170 Sabra main battle tanks from Israel(to counter the Greek decision to buy 170 Leopand 2A6 HEL from Germany).
Things that didn't make sense if you read them in those prophecies 100 or 50 or 30 or 20 or 10 years ago now make sense and actually make you think that things are going that way.
Because it's very interesting to know what will happen or to have an idea of what the world will go through soon and show it to the others so that when it happens they will believe in God.
Ah so this conflict in the regions of the middle east is new is it? Her was me thinking it was hundreds of years old.
And lets see, more prophecies by greek orthodox members that predict:
A)contantinople will return to the greeks
B)Greek orthodoxy will spread to the rest of the world
C)A greek king will rule with the divine blessing.
*Feins surprise again*
I was going to make a pun about predictable predictions, but I couldnt think of a good enough one.
The Roman-Catholic church has, by now, accepted that it's not going to be the be all end all church it used to be for the last say... oh 2 millenia. There is not a shadow of doubt in my mind that this instrument has changed a lot since WWII. Quoting a crusade 6 centuries ago amounts to very little proof here. I think the RC church is currently looking for like-minded allies in a shrinkin relious world. And the most logical suspect is are the Eastern Orthodoxies.
I do admit that, over time, integration is indeed an option. However, there is no way this will be accomplished in or by animosity.
Turkey and Israel don't have very strong relationships; it's merely bound by common enemies.
I'm affraid that Crusader (what's in a name?) is right on this one.
Well, what do you think of the prospect of Russia mixing in on the conflicts, then?
The prophecies talk about a WORLD WAR in a few words,not just something about some region WITH DETAILS.....Turkey attacking Greece,Russia attacking Turkey,USA and NATO attacking Russia,Russia sweeping over Persia,the war reaching into Palestine,battle of 7 nations in the Constantinople,slaughter for 3 days,victory of the strongest nation over the others etc.
These prophecies my dear Crusader have been written or said by Byzantine,Greek or Russian Fathers and Saints.The king that will come is still unknown if he will be Greek or Russian or half-greek.I don't know about that.
Turambar I mentioned the Fourth Crusade because it was one of the biggest crimes ever committed by the Catholic Church.They had been trying to unite the Churches since then.
In the early 15th century during the rule of Emperor John VIII Paleologus,the terms the West had put in order to help Byzantium against its enemies were Unification of the Churches and of course to accept the Catholic terms and demands,that's what they always wanted.Then during the reign of the last Emperor,the brother of John VIII,Constantine Paleologus the West put the same conditions but hardly any help came from the West.
Since then they had been trying to unite the Churches or to say it in a few words to make the Orthodox Church succumb to the Catholic Church.
I seriously doubt they changed their minds now,even in a world were atheism is growing unfortunately,they still want to see the role of the Orthodox Church minimized.
Turks and Jews have been allies,it's not just that they have common enemies,it's that they have been allies.Plain and simple.
As for your last question i didn't understand what you meant...can you make that more clear please?
You show a certain fondness for these prophecies, Foi. You attach at least some value to them. And the prophecies (you quote) show Russia coming to "save" Greece and/or Constantinople (sic).
How would you like Russia coming to your aid? Is that something you look forward to? Is that something you, above else, fear? Is this, in your eyes, a good sign? Or a bad one? Will Russia be hailed as liberator, or scowled as agressor? The prospect is Russia intervening- what do you think of this?
It's a good thing.But like Father Paisios had said when he was alive,when people asked him about Constantinople,the Russians won't do this because they love us,but because it will be in their interests to give us the City.That we have the City.
Yes I do give value to those prophecies and the things Orthodox fathers and saints have said.Why?Because they happen,because many other things they've said happened.
Do you know that many Russian Fathers had foretold the coming of the Revolution,had told people about the murder of the Tsar and about the rebirth of Russia?
Yes,it's not something weird,it has happened.And in Greece such things happen,it's like Eleni said,these people are not what an atheist would perhaps call "professional prophets" or something.These men were humble,pure their hearts were pure and God allowed them to know or see things about the future.Many people have met such elders like Father Paisios for example,and many....I can say hundreds can testify their stories when they met him.He could tell your name without knowing you.He could know the problems you had and would try to help you with advice and prayer.Many people heard things that astonished them when they met such figures of Orthodoxy.
Separate names with a comma.