Christianity

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Eàmanë, Aug 9, 2003.

  1. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

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    Give me a reason why. I've asked you three times now.

    I didn't put any words in your mouth, you just don't understand English very well.

    Unlike you, just because I don't respect an opinion it does not follow that I don't respect (and want to restrict) their freedom.

    You didn't answer my question. You just did a smoke and mirrors trick to try to avoid answering it.

    Respecting the right to an opinion is different than respecting an opinion.

    Now answer the question.

    So? Give me an answer.

    Their opinion about their faiths is greater than mine and more valuable than mine. They have spent years of their lives in the study of their faith whereas I haven't.

    True.

    No, you're just a ****ing idiot who can't read. I never said anything like that, you're just making a fake strawman of my post to knock over. How can I debate a person in English who doesn't understand it?

    That the person with the masters degree in a field of study should value other people's opinion who have no degree in the same field of study? No, why should he/she?

    Tolerance, literally, is useless. There has to be actions that a person is intolerant. I'm intolerant of causing harm and repressing rights. You apparently respect and tolerate the idea that rights should be suppressed and one group to dictate the will of another group. I am intolerant of the idea itself. I am tolerant of the right to say it.
     
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, I've read your last post.

    I don't think there's any point in keeping this thread of thought going. This is hardly about Christianity anymore.
     
  3. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

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    As a rule of thumb, the educated have a more rational opinion than the uneducated. That said, the uneducated can come up with brilliant ideas. Ideas should be judged on their own merit, but if somebody is not a student in the field in discussion, the person who is more educated in that field generally has the better opinion.

    No, every opinion does not have the same value. A person who has

    If you were serious, I would accept your opinion over the random person off the street.

    But you know more of it than those who don't study it. How is this up to debate?

    Instead of attacking me, you attacking a strawman hanging on a post for an easier fight. WHen you defeat the strawman, you think you've defeated me.

    Basically you're arguing with something that I didn't say, and then you think you defeated me by defeating the argument I didn't make.

    Why? What about being human entitles you to being honored? I only honor actions that a person makes. If you act as a good person should act, I will respect you. If you act as an evil person acts, I will disrespect you. If I don't know you, I have no reason to respect or disrespect you.

    Look up what the slippery slope fallacy is. The fact that you're using it means I don't even have to bother debating this point because it's illogical.

    Why is respect and politeness mutually inclusive? You can have on without the other. Respect, to me, means to honor or praise a quality in something or someone. I have no respect for the idea that gays should be arrested. There is nothing in that opinion that I think needs to be honored. Can I be polite to somebody I don't respect? All the time.

    Agreed.

    What an excuse. You admit to not taking my post for what it is and "read between the lines" adds up to putting words in my mouth.

    That is a quality I don't respect btw.


    I'll respond to the rest when I get home from work.
     
  4. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    It does, every oppinion has the same value. But oppinions can be based on a different number of facts (which we don't have in religion) and can therefore hold more truth. But as an oppinion it is not more valuable than the other.


    Seriously? I wouldn't.

    Because titles don't prove a thing.
    The school system here is a bit different, there are three kinds of degreed with which you can leave high school: One needs a total of 9 school years, one needs 10 and the other 13. And do the folks with the 13 years of school necessarily know more than the others? No. Some guys I graduated with are dumb and unknowing as strawmen and still think of themselves as better or smarter than the ones with the 9 years of school.
    If I spend my entire time with theology, then I know just about as much as someone who studied it.

    Since I really don't do it on purpose, maybe you should clarify your points for me.
    As I am no native speaker.


    Again, I did not say you have to honor anyone. I said you needed to show respect for human life.
    And Foi, btw, does not act as an evil person, he has another oppinion than we. (we probably need another example. I don't feel comfortable speaking about foin when he's not around)

    How is it illogical? I said that you and Hitler seem to lack respect for human life.


    I can't. But I can be 'unpolite' to people I respect - and still respect them for being themselves.



    It totally doesn't:

    "I intend to ship the jews off to some places where they can help our society better."
    Let's assume Hitler said that. Read between the lines. What could he have meant with that? He sure as hell never meantioned the KZ's in there. But the message was nontheless clear.
    Of course you can say: well today we know.
    Well 1931, about everyone knew that as well and still everyone later said that they didn't know. "Because Hitler never said he would kill the jews." Almost noone could quote him on that. But between the lines he said it.

    So don't tell me that between the lines is something that doesn't exist. It's also called Interpretation and we do it all the time.
     
  5. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus King Anakin's Royal Advisor, Constantly Around :D

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    And in return others respect you also, Tur :)
     
  6. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

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    It's sad how threads about religion always end in conflict. Sad, but not surprising. After all, the people here aren't different than the ones in the streets.
     
  7. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    It's a very sensitive subject. So expressing your opinion, well there's always a chance it's taken wrong, since it's so personal for everyone. And it's hard for many to stay subjective on the matter. But I just think that's part of our nature.
     
  8. Plotspider

    Plotspider New Member

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    Good points all, so far that I've seen. Thanks to those who are sounding out on a Fantasy forum for Christianity. That's wonderful news to hear. I replied to this one, because of the point that was made: My choice. I'd be interested to know how that happened? I am in a really bad slump in my life right now, very low in faith, and it would do me good to know (if not too personal) about conversion experiences, I think.

    Yes, I am a Christian, but I am one who is hurting right now. I won't say why on a public forum. I have spent many, many, many hours defending Christianity to vehement and somewhat venomous Atheists (and no, I don't want an argument here, so please don't try). My thanks to the people on this site who, while maybe not being of the same religion are respectful. I really love to see that, both from and to Christians.

    I find that, even though I am a Christian, I do not necessarily write along the party lines in my fantasy. I want to incorporate what I believe are universal truths, but my fiction doesn't read like Lewis or Tolkien or even Rowling as obvious religious allegory. Instead, I play with the ideas about what God might be doing in other universes differently than here. This leads to another thing I'd like to hear and write about personally, and that is, where does religion (for Christian writers of Fantasy) play in your work?

    Anyway, there's my two cents.

    J Gullage
     
  9. Plotspider

    Plotspider New Member

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    Again, I like the respect you show for people on the other side(s). Do you have qualms or quelms? ;) I wanted to merely ask you about the idea of God having always been. Have you ever tried to contemplate nothingness? A time in the universe where literally NOTHING existed? I have, and I find it very hard to do. Any space becomes something for me. Really and truly, just a thought question with nothing attached to it. You seem thoughtful. But one thing that amuses me to think of is "What if God has Always Existed?" Could this mean that he's made the universe differently before, destroyed it, started over? It wouldn't matter in the long run for us, because we who exist now will never know for certain in our lifetimes either end of this universe, but what if the rules were different in previous universes? What if God intends to change them later? What if the rules are different in concurrent universes?

    This leads me to think: without a God, and if truly all possibilities are possible in an infinite number of universes (an idea physicists toy with nowadays), doesn't this mean that somewhere, in some universe, there lurks something akin to the "Nothing" like in The Never Ending Story? Maybe, even as we speak, it's gobbling up all matter and we're next (wow, I'm coming up with a story here, maybe). Of course, thinking like this, doesn't this mean, in one universe, somewhere, God absolutely exists, is known, is trusted and believed in? What if our choices send us to different universes, and now we are in a universe where it takes faith, rather than logic, to find God? Likewise, this would mean a devil also exists, somewhere in some universe. I don't know, but would be interested to hear what you think, I think.

    Just thinking. Sorry to vomit my brain on you.
     
  10. Plotspider

    Plotspider New Member

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    Do you believe in philosophy? These also are books that have been recopied, but for some reason people trust them, and not the Bible. Science has proven the Bible to be about 99% accurately transcribed. Furthermore, what kind of infinite God can't keep his message straight. He can't control mankind to do what he wants with the Bible? Your first point is simply silly in its logic. Anybody here who claims to know more than anyone else (proving them wrong) is attempting to raise themselves up for their own purposes (and yes, vanity and prig-headedness can be a purpose, too). It's not the wording that is important, but the message. The message is very important.

    War is murder, but the alternative sometimes is worse, and I respect that problematic issue (ten commandments). I'm rather glad we don't live in a communist country, though, or a fascist one, either.

    Anyway, just nosing around.
     
  11. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    As i know am learning methodics ( class of Logic)
    debate is based on facts, whics are right at one point, and wrong at other :
    as example

    This Tree wont grow any larger.
    ^^ you reduce it from your observations of life. It is not SCIENTIFIC fact, or any other facy you may think of. It is guess. Same guess that God exists.

    As in Science, you can prove your hypothesis 100 times, but if 101st is wrong, hypothesis must be changed (or new experiment made)

    so I can prove that God does not exist. therefore IT does not.

    Troll physics rule.

    Ok, serius now. :)

    There is no strong facts on both sides. that God does or dosent exist. So this debate is kind of useless. So we could try to argue does God (if he exists) really did what he Bible said? Most of religious people say - you cant prove that he didnt. Of course I cant, but the quesions is : can you prove he did?
    (because as in science or in methodics ( which indeed include religion ) negative statemant or question cant be root of solution. Basicly you CAN NOT based your hypoteses or idea of statement that is negative. Simple as that.

    Why, you cant prove on negative statements?

    Because you cant conclude based on negative statements and second you can create other negative hypotesis, and you cant give `advices`. Its pretty hard to explain because it inculdes tons of charts....
     
  12. ciemnika

    ciemnika New Member

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    120 pages is simply too many for me to read from start to finish, especially when I'm fairly certain there's bound to be several irritating flame-wars in the middle someplace.

    I was raised christian. First baptist and then episcopalian. I will grant that many of the tenets of christianity and other religions are wise. Treating others kindly and honestly, etc. clearly serves us all for the better.

    That said, I'm firmly convinced that christianity and other religions are founded in fear and lust for power. I have no fear of dying and no lust for power and I don't need to provide a justification for everything in the world.

    There's no reason at all to put a magical explanation in place when the simple truth is that we just don't understand the scientific truth yet. Throughout human history, we've believed that certain things were magical or spiritual only to discover later on that there was a perfectly sane scientific explanation all along.

    Religion is the same. We are reaching out from a place of ignorance hoping to provide ourselves solace from fear by fooling ourselves into accepting illogical, magical notions.
     
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  13. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    And once again I find myself searching for the 'I like' button. >.> ^^
     
  14. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus King Anakin's Royal Advisor, Constantly Around :D

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    maybe we should all just take a look at the content which has been posted before attempting to beat the dead horse. And really, this IS a dead horse, and has been for a long time. I don't think anyone has anything to say that hasn't already been said.
     
  15. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    yeah I remember that in the God thread things got a bit in a vicious circle. And it wasn't always pleasant to post there. I think a lot of member do get less heated now in a debate than like on that thread, which is why it was closed down.

    Someone showed me this vid recently and while I don't always agree with how they respond to the man on the phone, they do make some fair points. This vid is more about Creationism imo than Christianity in general:
     
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    What is the group or organization "Singles for Christ" ?
     
  17. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    Found this:
     
  18. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    A ministry?Kind of like...a "flock" of an aera or something?I don't know what's it called in english.I'm still confused by the whole organization.
     
  19. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    Well this is just a part of the whole article, but you can look it up on wikipedia.
     
  20. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    nice vid - though it is a bit aggressive.
    Then again you're right: I would guess they're talking about (american) creationism rather than christianity in general. Since the christians over here don't end relationships because someone has a different opinion and all that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2011