Christianity

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Eàmanë, Aug 9, 2003.

  1. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Man didn't create man. We are chained by our chemically controlled mind to be addicted to things, to want to survive, we have little control over ourselves and we have weak disease susceptible forms. People die horrible painful deaths because of this world and their biology both things created by God.

    If I created a universe I would assume responsibility for everything, bad and good, that goes on in it. And the suffering far outweighs any pleasure on Earth.
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    As you know,at first everything was ok for man until Eva bit the apple.Now believing that or not,the thing is that man causes most of the harm on the planet and on humanity.The fact that we are so fragile as biological entities means that we were not made for war or hatred.Yet men keep fighting each other for thousands of years and that's man's fault.
     
  3. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    maybe we should all switch to Druidism/Buddhism :D nah, just kidding. But seriously, religions generally help to instill a sort of "standard" by which to live one's life, helps one define what's good and what's bad. To me, it's helpful to have a guideline of some sort, a fixed one. Kind of like the constitution. Or something. I mean, without a guideline/standard, who's to say what's "right" and what's "wrong"? unless that's defined by the society, in which case then I suppose there's no way to discuss morality at all, since the cannibal tribe likes killing others for food, the guys over there like torturing animals, the girls over there like to sell themselves and others into slavery, and the people over there couldn't care less what happens to their workers in their factories so long as it gets them money. idk, just rambling by this point, but that's a little of what's going through my mind, if anyone wants to know.
     
  4. Oddrun

    Oddrun I speak languages.

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    Being atheist or agnostic doesn't mean that you have no moral standards. They are developed by societies and by people themselves during their lifes. I guess the huge part of that happens during childhood (much depends on how our parents raise us) and puberty, but in fact our values change, or at least they should, all the time. And that's a good thing because new things and new situations happen to us all the time, we gain experience and learn stuff so that we can revise our views on what's right/wrong, or ok/not ok. I think that the standards we develop ourselves are much stronger than those religions impose. If I came to a conclusion that it's wrong to kill/steal/cheat then I understand why it is wrong because I gave it a thought and considered it. I know as well that I can always modify my views if I gain new knowledge or experience. If the standards come from outside they are very rigid. You cannot argue with them, change them or revise them because they are not yours. And some people don't even bother to understand them. Some, if you asked them "why?" tell you "because the Bible (or any other holy book) says so" and that's their strongest argument.
    Basically societies go for the no killing, no stealing, etc. policy. Not because of religion but because these are the values even older that the Bible, values that are crucial for the survival of the community. The basic rules of living in a group. And humans are social animals.
    I happen to be something between an agnostic and atheist and since childhood I had quite strong values. I guess I just developed them pretty early but it always amazed my parents. My views change with time as I become older and more experienced and that makes me believe that they are slowly becoming more and more accurate, and by accurate I mean relevant for me. There are many views I don't share with the Church of my country and it certainly doesn't mean that I'm less moral than it's believers. In fact, I live a more decent life than many of them. And it's ok, it's their life. But I'm not too fond of the double morality which is quite popular where I come from (and has quite a lot to do with the dominance of religion in society).
    I talked with my best friend about morality a few days ago. She's a catholic but doesn't always share the opinions of her Church either. She told me that she feels she's been losing her moral judgement lately - basically she confronted the real life which is not alway so black and white as religion would have it. And she, raised by very catholic parents, considering herself a part of that religion, confessed that she kind of stopped believing in those values. They were imposed on her (that's her words) and now she feels that they are not hers. That she doesn't really have her own views, her own standards and she doesn't know anything anymore. So when she rejected the values of the religion as not accurate, she was left with nothing or close to nothing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  5. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    The human condition causes people to do desperate things. And why would God punish all humans from the actions of few? That is the greatest flaw of judgement, it is like saying that because one person in your family is a thief then everybody in your family is one, or everybody in your country, or everybody of the same race, or every human in this instance.

    Do you really blame people for being mad? We didn't create our emotions, our will to live might mean killing others for resources, you can't blame anybody for killing to survive. Yet we are expected to overcome the natural biological drive that God would have instilled in us that contradicts his very orders. Anger is present in other animals, it isn't some BS garbage put into us by some magic man with horns and a prod. Unless the devil also controls all things natural that God made.

    Fear and hate, two things responsible for most of our grief among other humans are natural survival reactions. We were made with them, with the capability to have them. Right and wrong is a matter of perspective and any other definition is delusion. No thing is 100% right or good because everybody has different standards, not even God. Because from my perspective an engineer is responsible for their creation. And God made a dysfunctional mess of suffering from the human condition.
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I wanted to ask you something LY,out of curiosity...what do you expect to find in this thread?For me,I don't even remember how I got tangled here again,but for you,what do you expect to find,something that will give you answers,a feeling of understanding by similar-minded people?Something else? Just out of curiosity.
     
  7. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    i'm here out of curiosity on TFFers' opinions on it, if anyone wanted to know x3
     
  8. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    I don't think that answers are possible for all my questions unfortunately, I already know I have the most bizzaro opinion so I don't expect easy agreement or to find anybody like me.

    I just feel like Christianity often gives off a very anti-humanist vibe sometimes. Assuming that people are born evil and stating lots of definite knowns without proof. Lately I've been seeing more and more people on the internet and in real life say things about how they are disappointed in people as a whole when people have done great things.

    I feel like Christianity and most other religions also bar the human race from a more palpable goal, with promises about good times after life while trying to break down great ambition that works for the human race as a whole. Stories like the Tower of Babel where God does malicious things that don't make sense for him to do.

    I think that a real God wouldn't need praise or anybody to be devout to him or anybody to really defend him because a God has so much power trying to tame a creation he doesn't have full control over is frivolous. It seems to be a more follower based thing to hold praise to God and not question him just so they can keep their faith. But if they really recognized that God if they define their God as capable of creating universes then why would it matter?

    I'm a proponent of humanity but in a realistic way and I still think doubt should be a virtue. I'm just here so I can try to get you to see the good in people while question other things that may seem more concrete and unbending because it will strengthen your perspective and ability to consider it in a more realistic way.

    While I really don't care for Christianity, I'd like to see it modernize to be more adaptable because in the long run that is the only way it will be able to still exist and hold water. See it update to a more flexible view of morality along with a more realistic understanding of the motive and personality of a God. Something that can not be perceived must have a flexible definition or multiple definitions. Maybe I'd hope for a more theory based view of religion.
     
  9. Hater`

    Hater` headless hater

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    I wish I could believe in any sort of religion, because sometimes ignorance is a bliss.. there would be so much less things to worry about, because than it`ll would be a God`s plan.
     
  10. Beldaran

    Beldaran Guest

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    I don't believe in anything supernatural, used to want to believe in god when I was little.. but I couldn't.. can only believe in things I can reason about in a scientific way.. I cannot just "believe" in something. But I'm fine with people believing in a god :), as long as they find a lot of support in it and don't go extreme (as unfortunately so many people do :().
     
  11. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    I have no problem with spiritual beliefs, but organized religion seems kinda restrictive and silly to me. It makes you believe everything a religion teaches when perhaps only some of it is true/worth believing in. You could pick and choose which parts of the religion to follow, but I'm of the belief that creating your own religion based on things you honestly think are true about the universe is alot more liberating and honest.

    It is reasonable to believe in an intelligent creator that you choose to call god, but so many of the specifics in the bible are absurd and contradictory. Why does he care if you go to church? Did he actually turn people into pillars of salt for looking upon the destruction of sodom? Are we really supposed to not eat meat on certain days of the week? Why is the sabbath special at all? Why do muslims have to pray towards mecca? Why are shellfish and pork off limits for jews?

    These all seem like specific cultural traditions for the worship of god, traditions created by man and not mandated by god. So why follow them? Why don't you worship him in your own way which is more meaningful to you specifically?
     
  12. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Religion bores me rigid, as does spiritualism although they have spawned the occasional decent novel/film. Some of the really old buildings are impressive and services/chant in latin can be quite nice to listen too in a spooky way but as for the goobledygook religious types spew out ~ *yawn* :)

    I'm just hoping that the MSL (Curiosity) finds evidence of life on Mars so we can prove another area where religion got it so wrong ~

    Earth is more than a few thousand years old: [x]
    It's not at the centre of the universe (or even the solar system): [x]
    Life isn't unique only to earth: [ ]
    We're not any God's little playthings: [ ]
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  13. Beldaran

    Beldaran Guest

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    Totally agree with you elladan! i think gothic/roman churches and some of those old gregorian monk chants are very beautiful. Just can't believe in it because of the reasons you mention.

    Nice to see you're interested in astronomy as well, can't wait for the first results from mars!
     
  14. Hater`

    Hater` headless hater

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    I would like to state, that religion was needed in history, but it just a thing we need to get rid of, or improve to live in symbiosis with modern day life.


    we can`t live whit that sort of religion anymore.

    Ted was so funny.
     
  15. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Spiritualism, religion, belief in the supernatural were indeed necessary for humanity's evolution... you don't get scientific exploration without first wondering what exists beyond your understanding.
     
  16. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Great minds think alike Beldaran ;)

    Gregorian chant can be beautiful ~ Salve Regina by the Benedictine Monks of Saint-Maurice & Saint-Maur is probably my favourite (originally recorded in the 1950s since remastered ~ captures echoey sound)

    All things astronomy/space gets a big tick up from me. How they managed to pull off the complex landing of MSL just speaks volumes of what humans can achieve with no Godly oversight required.

    I can't believe that so many believe in God (& the exclusive validity of their chosen religion) but then believers are equally incredulous that non-believers don't so I suppose we're all quits and can just get on with life thinking 'the rest' are slightly nuts, but mainly harmless :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  17. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    "Mostly Harmless" indeed :D
     
  18. Beldaran

    Beldaran Guest

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    I'm going to look that up, I actually don't know names of what I'm listening to. I just listen to the cd's my mum has :). I'm going to look for it in her collection.

    It's amazing what they can do!! I learned about a theory which states that religion exists because people need/want an answer for inexplicable things in life (which in my opinion could be very reasonable because of the development of religion over time - starting with polytheism to explain different natural appearances developing into monotheism, etc.). I don't understand why people who believe in god can still believe in it now all the scientific knowledge we have totally contradicts things said in the bible about so many things around us.

    There is this video on YT (you can find it on "how big is the universe", I think it's a documentary from national geographic) which explains what they think the universe probably'll look like. It's a very interesting video, but at the end the narrator starts talking about some "creator". Too bad :(.

    But well, I'm okay with believers as long as they respect my opinion too. I have a friend who believes and she always tries to persuade me and now goes on a trip to a third world country to give the kids the opportunity to go to church, when they're not even christians! I don't like that kind of stuff..
     
  19. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    I'm agnostic... and I don't think about Christianity :) just hate when people of any religion are blindly following their faith...
     
  20. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    religious institutions do more for charity than nonreligious :/