China in Middle Earth

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Earth001, Sep 4, 2011.

  1. Earth001

    Earth001 New Member

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    This has been something I have thought up and I was wondering about what would happen if the Han Dynasty from the Height of their power had all their land scooped up and placed in Middle Earth? This is not so much of a vs debate as of how people would react kind of debate. How would this scenario go down?
    1. What would the People of Middle Earth think of chinese Culture, Music, Art, Architecture, Language?
    2. How well would Chinese forces compare to armys of MIddle Earth at that time?
    3.How well would they get along
    4. What would the Chinese think of Middle Earth
    5. The timeline of this is ither the Second Age of Middle Earth or the Third Age of Middle Earth I just have not thought of a good location of where they should be put

    I am not so sure if this discussion is allowed but I have been wondering this for a while.
     
  2. Druid of Lûhn

    Druid of Lûhn The Little Lamb.

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    The chinese would try to destroy the free peoples, and their armies would be pretty powerful. What must be taken into account of course is that they would probably also go to was with Sauron, as well as all magical creatures. They would therefore have no chance as they would be opposed to the supernatural. Their culture would be an interesting input however, and it would spread during the massacres. It would be very interesting to see how the elves, men and dwarves would react to the culture change that their warriors will pick up. The orcs don't exactly have a recognisable culture, so won't ever change.
     
  3. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Curious that you'd put the Chinese at war against the magical creatures, especially considering that (and I say this with only a very light understanding) their culture is one more akin to worship and adoration of mythical creatures. Just take the dragon - western views are nearly always that its a monster, a terrible creature of wings, fire and death that must be hunted out. Whereas in the Chinese culture is far more a revered and respected creature of mythology.

    We must also not forget that the Chinese often make far more use of animal resources than western culture - whereas we mostly stick to dog, horse, cow, pig, sheep etc.. they branched out more widely to take advantage of creatures - such as otter or pelican fishing.


    In the end the greatest point is not just considering the culture but also the point in history at which you'd want the Chinese represented - they've a history as long as anyone elses and with big differences through the timeline with regard to the social structure and values. Whilst they've the typical theme of very high populations, effective workforce and a large effectively peasant force we can't forget that they've had a very varied history. I think to give better input one would have to have studied the Medieval and previous histories of the Chinese to really give weight to such debate.
     
  4. Druid of Lûhn

    Druid of Lûhn The Little Lamb.

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    The thing is that they're Dynasties were very warlike, and would treat "monsters" in their territory very well, but win the mythical creatures are not under their control; they'll try to exterminate them, like they did with the pandas. Those dynasties would have wanted conquest, and against the Peoples of Middle-Earth would have had no chance.
     
  5. bloodfiredeath

    bloodfiredeath Die by the Sword

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    I get a mental image that it would resemble an episode of "Monkey".
     
  6. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I was under the impression that Pandas were not so much waged war against, but that they simply live in ecosystems that are being bulldozed/farmed and thus destroyed - no food and no living space = no ability for the species to grow.
     
  7. bloodfiredeath

    bloodfiredeath Die by the Sword

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    Maybe the Chinese forces could utilise Pandas as steeds to ride to war upon or to pull their chariots??
    I am sure an angry panda would put the fear of death into the opposing Orcs, Ring Wraiths and Nazgul.
     
  8. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Well they do say this about bears

    warning contains a naughty word!

    Also I recall that bulls/cows and oxen have also been used for cavalry in the past as well.
     
  9. Earth001

    Earth001 New Member

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    So what would happen if we removed offencive magic (meaning magic that can do physical attacks) from Middle Earth and just have the world be like ours how would things turn out? How would Orc armys do against seging the city of Xi'an?
     
  10. Kakashi

    Kakashi Call me Deacon Blues

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    Why China and not Rome?

    I don't think the Chinese would stand much of a chance at all though.
     
  11. bloodfiredeath

    bloodfiredeath Die by the Sword

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    I think any civilization from our history would struggle against Sauron's forces.
    The sheer mental power of bloodthirsty Orcs etc at the walls, would send many soldiers running home screaming "Demons" and throughly demoralise the defenders.
    The fact that ancient Chinese had gunpowder/Explosives would certainly be in their favour.
    I am sure that Chinese strategists of the time (like Sun Tzu) would have adapted fairly quickly to the threat.
    Sort of makes me think of Robert Jordan's Trolloc War's in WoT.
     
  12. Kakashi

    Kakashi Call me Deacon Blues

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    But I mean they didn't have very effective use of gunpowder until much later... if i'm not mistaken.

    I'd like to see a group of Spartans against like 10,000 orcs though. not that that's on topic but :D
     
  13. bloodfiredeath

    bloodfiredeath Die by the Sword

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    You are probably right, I actually have no idea about the extent of which ancient Chinese military utilised gunpowder.
    The Spartans vs Orcs would be interesting, or Orcs vs Samurai, and so on.
    Not sure which ancient culture would carve them up the best.
     
  14. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Oh my, you guys need to bone up on ancient Chinese history.

    Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" was written in the 6th century BC... it was leagues above where the European mindset was at the time concerning Warfare and Statecraft. The Chinese had superior metallurgy, tactics, sheer numbers of soldiers, understanding of logistics, military intelligence, flexibility and command at the local level... some of Sun Tzu's teachings didn't enter the western military mainstream until the early Twentieth Century.


    The Chinese under a capable leader would have ran roughshod through Middle Earth.
     
  15. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Maybe, but then again if they were in Middle Earth from the start one would have to expect the existing cultures there to have adapted to them in order to survive. However you are right in that the Middle Earth armies are molded far more after the Norse type way of war, which favoured a more individual approach rather than the military organisation of the ranks of Chinese (or Roman) which removes individual prowess in favour of organised rank after rank of trained troops.

    That isn't to say that the Middle Earth armies lacked organisation nor control, but that they were not built along the same lines - though as the "Barbarians" proved near the end of the Roman ear, each of the two approaches to warfare can work very well when used correctly.

    As for removing offensive spells there really were not that many in use in middle earth - you have only two or three wizards on either side really fighting and the rest is base troops doing the battles. In that light the gunpowder, even if only lightly used would be devastating (just look at Helm's Deep) though I suspect if one race had that in more abundance we would have seen it used more by both sides.
     
  16. Kakashi

    Kakashi Call me Deacon Blues

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    The Han Dynasty didn't have gunpowder.
     
  17. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I think the problem is most of us don't know on Dynasty from the other - generally the historical and mythological understanding of China by many is quite poor - heck my understanding comes from Dynasty Warriors, a book on otters and Temeraire
     
  18. Earth001

    Earth001 New Member

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    I did not use Rome instead of China because that would probably be done to death. There are probably already debates about Rome in Middle Earth but I pick China because that is more unique than all the others.
     
  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    The Chinese receive far too much credit for discovering Black Powder.
    One thing is for certain though, they grossly underestimated it's potential as a weapon of war.


    Can anyone name a great Chinese explorer?.. you can't, because there really weren't any.

    It's why the Chinese would have never found themselves in Middle Earth in the first place.
     
  20. Jinral

    Jinral The yet to be published

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    Well if the Chinese were in fact there say during the Han dynasty, it would be imperialistic. As for magical creatures yes they did hold them in great regard, but the dynasty itself would have never allowed them to exist if it threatened them. They would remove enough of them to remove them as a threat.
    As for their tactics, if anyone has read the art of war, would be far superior. Cunning would be the way to describe, they would only fight if victory was assured, ally with whomever they needed to, temporarily. Honestly I think they would ally with sauron, the free peoples would be conquered because they never had the upper hand. Theyre potential for invention as evidenced by Liu bei's repeating crossbow would give them a sizable advantage. Not long after defeating the free people would they turn on sauron.
    That being said they are not perfect, their imperialism causes them to be spread thin and with middle earths geography not being conducive to defending such a large area, the majority of it being easily accessible over land with the exception of mordor and just past the gap of Rohan, if the free people perceived the threat and allied quickly, the dynasty would be contained in the northwest ( sauron isn't known for keeping house guests in mordor). They would be dis advantaged by fighting a war on two fronts, but if they worked together they could contain or destroy sauron in the east and contain china in the west.

    Srry hobbits but your screwed
     
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