Characters

Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by Elan Morin Tedronai, Feb 5, 2005.

  1. Numenor53

    Numenor53 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2005
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    Sansa wasnt frightened by Cersei she went willingly, and to go behind someones back ( especially your Father) is a form of betrayal in my opinion. Sansa was angry she had to leave Joffrey, and in her stupidity went to Cersei.
    Even though she did as you said "plead" for Pardon, Eddard's Fate was already sealed. Too little too late.
    That said im not a big fan of Sansa, true she is a child, and is manipulated, but Cmon, can someone be so blind to the world around them.
    I think Turgon883 said it best, She acts so Unlike a Stark, perhaps thats why she doesnt have a direwolf anymore...
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2005
  2. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    Maybe that was a bit of foreshadowing on Martin's part. I do agree that she is the odd one out in the Stark family, but I dont believe that she would intentionally betray her father. She didn't know what was going on, she is a child, and manipulators like Cersei took advantage of her.
     
  3. Turgon883

    Turgon883 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    7,707
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +27 / 0 / -0
    That could be...The starks (and snow) seem to be connected to their wolves...I wondered if arya will rejoin her wolf later...(it wasn't killed just forced away...)...However now that i think about it i wonder if that was foreshadowing...For Arya has been driven off and is now (at the end of the third book) heading to the free cities...
     
  4. Alexiel

    Alexiel New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    I like Jon Snow(*in love*), Sandor Clegane,Eddard Stark and Bran Stark
    I think I look like Arya :)
     
  5. Patkun

    Patkun Patkun, lover of bread

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    You all want Sansa to be like Arya, that's your problem.
    Sansa is an average Westorosi girl, and Arya is a nutcase.
    She didn't knowingly betray Ned-- look at it from her point of view:
    All she heard was that she couldn't say goodbye to her fiancee, while Arya was allowed to see Syrio. She wasn't told that she was in danger, so it was the same defiance which Bran and Arya are always showing. It was just badly timed.

    Foreshadowing for what, exactly?
     
  6. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    The death of Lady as foreshadowing for Sansa betraying Eddard (if you think that)/acting so un-Starkish/Estranged from her House.
     
  7. Numenor53

    Numenor53 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2005
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    I dont want Sansa to be like Arya..... and Sansa is delusional not average. She is girl who believes the world is like the songs she hears, perfect..... Thats her problem, by the time she realizes whats goin on around her it's too late. Arya, is aware of whats goin on, and takes the appropriate actions in order to stay alive, and out of the hands of the Lannisters.
    But someone who doesnt "knowingly" betray someone is still betraying them


    Wasnt Syrio going to go with the girls??
     
  8. Turgon883

    Turgon883 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    7,707
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +27 / 0 / -0
    I believe so...but then he died...
     
  9. Patkun

    Patkun Patkun, lover of bread

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    Why is believing that people are generally good and nice a delusion? She's twelve, for goodness' sake.
    Arya solves her problems in this sort of way:

    Problem: "I want to get home.
    I need money to get home.
    Those merchants seem unguarded.
    So, let's rob them.
    If they fight back, we can kill them.
    What do you think, Hot Pie?"
    "I don't think that's a very good idea..."
    "Well, nobody cares what you think."

    I'm not saying she isn't cool, but she certainly isn't normal.
    Surely betrayal is defined by doing it knowingly?
     
  10. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    Yeh, Arya is a bit weird like that. Shes this little girl with a penchant for murder. It makes for interesting reading though. And I can see why everyone thinks Sansa betrayed Ned, but shes been frightened into it. She knows her fathers not a tr****r, but shes too afraid to say anything, because she knows what will happen if she does. Chop chop.
     
  11. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    5,496
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    BFE
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -0
    He he, chop chop . . . Stabbity Stab!!

    Sorry, I'm having a moment.
     
  12. Numenor53

    Numenor53 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2005
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0


    True she is only twelve, but for the times in the book, twelve is early adulthood, girls get married as soon as they "flower" ( hope you all like the term ;) ) which in her case was when she was what 13?? So i dont think you can use that as an excuse.
    Like i said before, Arya is doing what she must to survive, granted it is a little extreme to picture a little girl doing these things but she is rough around the edges. And like you said an interesting read.
    I still think Sansa betrayed Ned, she told Cersei Neds plans to leave Kings Landing. Prompting Cersei to act.
    Whatever Sansa motives were, Eddard is Dead. Would he be dead if Sansa didnt say anything? Who is to say, he probably would be, but his daughters would have been safe, no trade for Jaime etc etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2005
  13. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    14,968
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Ratings:
    +124 / 0 / -0
    **POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING**

    It's really weird. In the beginning, I hated Sansa, Sandor Clegane, and Jaime Lannister, but now I like them.

    Favorites: Arya Stark, Jon Snow, Dany, Bran Stark, Tyrion Lannister, Sansa Stark, Jaime Lannister, Catelyn... I have too many people I like! :)

    Jon Snow's kind of obvious. I like Arya for her courage, Dany for her strength, Bran for not whining, and Tyrion for his wit. I used to hate Sansa for being a total whimp, but now, I just feel sorry for her. Jaime's actually turning out to be pretty funny (although his relationship with Cersei creeps me out). I used to dislike Catelyn for her exclusion of Jon and her "mothering" thing, but (especially towards the end), she found her courage.

    Hated: Joffrey Baratheon, Cersei Lannister, Lysa Arryn, Janos Slynt.

    Joffrey is an annoying, cruel, AND stupid brute. It's the worst combination. Cersei's almost as annoying in her blindness to see Joffrey's unsuitability for the throne. As for Lysa Arryn, her devotion to her little "Lord Robert" is pathetic, especially towards the end. WHY does she have to act like a girl of 16 in front of Petyr? *shudder* She creeps me out... Janos Slynt just sucks up to people. I know that he's a fairly minor character, but he STILL manages to irritate me badly.

    And about Arya... maybe her savagery is a reflection of Nymeria? Bran was sharing dreams with Summer, so maybe Nymeria's nature is leaking over to Arya's as well.
     
  14. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    Another character Im crazy about is Rhaegar Targaryen, he's so awesome. I liked Syrio Forel as well, especially the way he talked, "You will be trying to be hitting me now."
     
  15. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    14,968
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Ratings:
    +124 / 0 / -0
    I can't really say anything about Rhaegar Targaryen, but he's waaay better than Viserys by a long shot. And I forgot to includre Syrio Forel as one of my favorite characters; thanks for reminding me! Does anyone else think that he's not dead?
     
  16. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    I certainly hope so, he's a great character, and an amazing swordsman.

    What's wrong with Rhaegar ? Is it about the whole "raping Lyanna" thing, because I don't think he raped her at all. He was too noble for that. He was a true knight, I reckon. He just got a bad rap.
     
  17. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    14,968
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Ratings:
    +124 / 0 / -0
    Nothing's wrong with Rhaegar; I just don't have enough info about him at the moment. But DO remember that this was my first read-through, and I was more interested in picking up the main plot than the details. Pretty much, it was GET THROUGH AS FAST AS POSSIBLE AND MAKE SURE ALL THE COOL CHARACTERS DIDN'T DIE. :p :) So that was exactly what I did... read A Storm of Swords in five hours. I'll reread all three books again, and who knows, maybe I'll end up liking Rhaegar.

    But why do you like Rhaegar anyway? Fairly minor character, we know almost nothing about him...

    As for "raping Lyanna", in the Q&A section, there was an article about Jon Snow's parentage in the link posted there by yoadm (can't remember his name at the moment) that persuaded me that Rhaegar didn't rape Lyanna.
     
  18. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    This is actual my first time reading it, and I havent entirely finished ASOS yet.

    As for Rhaegar, I just love his character. He's so mysterious and he wass one of the greatest knights, it was said that his only match was Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword Of The Morning. And he's such a sad, melancholy character, and for some reason I like that in characters. And he was differnet from the other Targaryens, it seems to me. He was a really honourable person, and a great knight. With cool black armour. Whats not to like about him ? :p
     
  19. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    14,968
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Arizona
    Ratings:
    +124 / 0 / -0
    He was related to Viserys, and I despise Viserys. :D :p

    Nah, just kidding. I suppose that he does seem like a cool and mysterious character... it's just that there's not as much to base a "liking" on (for example, it's really easy to state why I like Jon Snow or Tyrion Lannister).
     
  20. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,747
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Sydney
    Ratings:
    +47 / 0 / -0
    Fair enough, suffice to say I love both those characters too, especially Jon Snow. But there are several minor characters I like. Rhaegar, Ser Arthur Dayne, Qhorin Halfhand to name a few. The fact that alot isn't know about them is a good thing. Leaves more to the imagination and makes them seem more like legends.