Character Discussion: Arya, Sansa, and Catelyn Stark

Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by Liadan, Nov 24, 2006.

  1. Omega3R

    Omega3R Mi ne sijemo.

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    WARNING!!! SOME SPOILERS!!!








    considering sansa, i really hated her in the beginning, and all that crazy and romantic devotion she had to joffrey. i really, really hated her. later i felt sorry for her, and in the end she turned out to be one of my favourite carachters. she seems to have grown up, learned from her mistakes, and sees the world in quite a different view. the way she has been taking care of robert arryn really moved me, and from that moment on i began to be very fond of her.

    arya was in the beginning one of the carachters i was honestly fond of, but now i just seem not to like her that way. what arianne said, that she became a killer, i never really thought of that that way. it never seemed to be something that horrible. arya doesn't reall have a mind of a killer, and even if she kills a man or two, she will never be that kind of killer joffrey baratheon-lannister was, or that kind of killer cersei is. at start, her cahpters were really interesting, but in the end she turns out to be quite boring. and you all know i dislike that kind man of hers.

    catelyn stark is still one of my favourites. her thoughts about robb and ned (when she thinks, has robb ever kissed a girl, or how ned liked her hair), her love and devotion to them, the way she cares about everything, her brother, her husband, her father, her castle... i really liked it, and thus i liked her. i however disliked her being so hostile to jon snow. and i really disliked it. and, just as arianne said, what she turned to in the end frightenes me.
     
  2. Vornik

    Vornik New Member

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    Hi all,

    I don't think that we are always "fair" to characters within this series. For example:

    Who could expect Arya to remain an innocent after the time she spent in captivity with Gregor?

    What decisions would you have made that would have been better than Cat's, given the information that she had at the time?

    What do you expect from a young girl that is betrothed, to what she considers the perfect prince for the perfect storybook ending, to behave when she learns that she's being sent back to Winterfell?

    I dare say, that if anyone feels that they could do even marginally better in each given situation, they are a FAR better person than I. I am in turns amazed and appalled by the way I have been manipulated into feeling one way or another about a character by Mr. Martin (who would have thought that Jaime could be liked by ANYONE at the beginning of the series?).

    I started reading AGoT for the 3rd time recently, after having read several of these types of posts, and I looked for a reason to think I could make better decisions or act more appropriately than any given character from Jon to Tyrion. What I found was that I could empathize far too much with each individual's given situation to think that I could do a better job. What would you do to escape Harrenhal? How would you try to ensure that no more of your children die needlessly? How would you react to finding out your dreams were being crushed for a reason that isn't apparent (granted I hated her for what she did)?

    That's one of the things that I love so much about the series. There is NO perfect character (a reason that I didn't like Goodkind), either good nor evil. When given the perspective from the character's eyes, I challenge you to honestly say that you could do enough differently (with the given situation) to make a large difference in the whatever outcome that occurred.

    It reminds me of the quote (forget from whom): "The average person doesn't think they are"


    Sorry to rant on my first post

    ~Vornik
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2006
  3. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    I'm very surprised no one has responded to this. You bring up very good points and I don't think anyone here can (or would) disagree with you. In their situation, I believe Martin's characters did exactly what they were destined to do. The fact of the matter is, however, that I can't empathize with Jaime throwing Bran out of a window any more than I can empathize with the people who wind up on Jerry Springer. I think humans are natural critics. To be able to get past that and literally place yourselves in someone elses' shoes to justify their behavior is a good habit to get into. But I won't lie, I do judge people. Most of us do.

    That being said, as much as we do critic our favorite (and not so favorite) characters, I think I can speak for most people here in when I say that we absolutely love Martin's creations. Even if that means we love to hate them. After all, we wouldn't have anything to talk about if they were perfect.
     
  4. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Lol, you two know each other from a previous forum? Anyway, at TFF, the mods/admins will warn ya if you're going too off-topic. But that's in other sections - I swear that none of the mods ever check through this area except to warn us occasionally for language. They're probably scared of us. :D

    And I agree completely with App's post. Vornik (btw, welcome to the TFF ASoIaF section and all of its insanity :D) brings up some interesting points as well. However, there are some things that I cannot agree with, at least in Sansa/Arya's case (I've rather liked Cat as a character for a very long time.) In Sansa's case, she might have "just" been 11, but she should have learned to be more on her guard. Arya, her younger sister, distrusted the Lannisters from the start. And although I love Jaime, throwing Bran out the window was inexcusable. In Arya's case, I'm thinking about an AFFC-related murder.

    SPOILER WARNING:













    That, of course, refers to the murder of Daeron. Yes, I disliked Daeron as well, but...



    I don't think I'm making any sense right now, so I'll post in here again later. :)
     
  5. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    Lol, so true :D.

    @ Vornik: Nice post, welcome to this madhouse! :)


    Oh, and just to add something to the discussion:
    Well, 11 is still very young and I'm not sure using the comparison is fair. You can't blame Sansa for having a naturally more trusting nature than Arya after all. Also, Arya wasn't 'in love' like Sansa, something which naturally clouded Sansa's thoughts :D.
     
  6. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    11 in this world and 11 in her world's a little bit different, I think. :) True, she was very sheltered as a child, but even so, it's Westeros, a bloody and violent land, although I'll agree with the love bit. But what struck me as incredibly stupid is that she continued to trust Joff after Lady's death and even blamed Arya for it.
     
  7. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    That was probably a product of all that built up "hatred" of her sister.
     
  8. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Blood is blood - she shouldn't go around hating on her sister. ;P
     
  9. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    No, she shouldn't. But how many of Martin's characters do what they should? ;)
     
  10. Taria

    Taria Dark Doll

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    Well, Appaliq you are right. As for Sansa, she shouln't have Arya for one obvious reason: Arya was right all the way from the start.
     
  11. Kraas

    Kraas New Member

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    Hi folks, very first post here. I just recently bought all four available ASoIaF books and I'm rereading them. None of my close friends have read this and I'm glad I've found a forum that's actively discussing this series!

    My thoughts on the three ladies in question:

    1. Sansa - whenever I say her name I mentally add "the poor kid!" She's had a lot of misfortune and I've got nothing but sympathy for her. She's a Stark though and she's toughing it out. I'm a little worried though now that she's pretty much stuck with Littlefinger. Hopefully the gallant knight in shining armor she once hoped for will finally find her and rescue her. Though I doubt this will happen...Lady is apparently dead and that makes me worry that Sansa's own demise isn't too far off.

    2. Arya - I love Arya, ruthless though she might be. I'm worried though that a lot of people in her List of Those Who Must Die are going to pass on before she has a chance to get to them. I don't remember too clearly the killings mentioned before (the stableboy & guard), since I haven't read AFfC in a long time. I need to spend most of this evening reading to catch myself back up. It's a bit sad she's becoming Faceless, since the old Arya will melt away (I personally think that's what her apparent blindess at the end is caused by, she's going to fade away and be reborn as a Faceless Woman), but I'm hoping that deep down that she will still have her old memories.

    Also, something has been bugging me...I don't know if you guys have ever talked about this, but is it possible that Arya is not Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully's biological daughter? Please say it isn't...I don't know why but I don't want that to be true.

    3. Catelyn - She's tragic, I think, but I just need to get back up to speed on the story before I can say anything more about her, because Sansa and Arya really grabbed me; I found them more interesting than Catelyn.
     
  12. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    I'm 99.9% sure Arya is Ned and Catelyn's biological daughter. She does take after Ned in looks after all, and there's never been any suggestion that she wasn't their daughter. Besides, who else's would she be?
     
  13. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Yep. What she said. :p

    And as for Arya, a lot of us believe that she'll begin training as a Faceless Woman, but won't actually become one. :) I suppose we'll see further in ADWD.
     
  14. Kraas

    Kraas New Member

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    Thanks for the reassurance.

    I guess it's reasonable to assume that she won't go through with the training, just like it's reasonable to assume that Jon won't spend the rest of his life on the Wall. If things go the way I think they will, then they probably won't need a Wall anymore.
     
  15. Taria

    Taria Dark Doll

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    Nah...I never mused about that. But what makes you think so?
     
  16. Kakashi17

    Kakashi17 New Member

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    As Badass as it is to become a Faceless Women, I would never want anyone I am related to or friends with to become one. Being an assasin takes a lack of humanity that I would never want to see in someone I care about. Even if she is able to retain a sense of who she is (which will happen when she meets up w/Nymerah again) without that I think the whole point is missed.
     
  17. Kraas

    Kraas New Member

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    What made me wonder about Arya not being Eddard and Catelyn's kid is how she only really connects with Jon, who we know for sure is not Catelyn's, and she's the only one that looks like Eddard. The rest look like Catelyn.

    I could think of some more clues but I should be working right now n_n
     
  18. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Well Arya and Jon both have their father in them, that's certain. BTW, welcome to the forums Kraas! Where are you from?
     
  19. Kakashi17

    Kakashi17 New Member

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    I was just reading an Arya chapter in AFFC and in it The Kindly Man hints that the facelessmen had a hand in the downfall of Valyria, did anyone else see that or am I just retarted? (alright stupid question)
     
  20. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    What's the reference, kakashi? I don't remember anything like that, but I'm really bad at picking up any kind of hint and it's a while since I've read AFFC.
     
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