Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by finrod, Dec 16, 2003.
How do you people feel about this?
Re: death sentence.
I'm against the death sentence and am happy I live in a country where the death sentence is banned. The way I see it is you are killing people because they have killed others. In a way you are commiting the same crime you are killing them for doing. It is illegal to kill people so it should be illegal in all cases.
Personally, when the accused has been tried and found guilty, beyond the shadow of a doubt, of society's most heinous crimes, I do believe in capital punishment.
I believe that not only is it a deterrent against crime, but I as a taxpayer resent supporting the likes of Paul Bernardo so that he can one day walk free in the society he chose not to uphold the morals of.
While I don't feel I am a violent person by nature, as a father and husband I would kill to protect my family from harm; if you felt the same, why would you be against a death penalty?
(And just a side note Stri, killing ISN'T illegal in all cases. or our own grandfathers and the armed forces would all be in jail. Killing wasn't a problem for us when we were fighting in WWII )
I have not yet organized my own thoughts on capital punsihment, but I do have a few thoughts on this(surprise, surprise). Killing a person who has been charged, tried, and convicted of a heinous crime is not the same as the self-defense that you described. As a mother, I would disembowel anyone who tried to harm my babies, so I do understand that feeling. However, the topic that we are discussing is the killing of a prisoner...who is, assumedly, in custody. That takes the self-defense/protecting one's family theory out of the equation.
arg you know what I meant
I'm not referring to jaywalkers. I don't know whether you know about, for example, Paul Benardo and Karla Holmolka, they are two local criminals who abducted two young women; videotaped them being raped and tortured, then they were murdered, their bodies mutilated then dumped after being encased in cement. On top of this, they may be responsible for drugging and raping Karla's own sister, who died because of the drugging. And there are allegations that a fourth "Jane Doe" may also have been abused.
Guess what? After being coddled in a special women's prison where she received a degree on taxpayer's money, Karla is almost eligible for parole, less than 10 years later.
So to me, yes -- it is a form of self-defense. Defense of society.
But Stri, you said this yet you seem to understand that killing IS justified in some cases. Which is worse, the danger from the enemy of our country, or the enemies within it?
And what about all those people who were wrongly accused and they found out 2 seconds too late? Dealing out death is a very serious thing and while there are some that do deserve it there are those who don't.
Sorry, I PS'd my last post while you replied. The justice system had appeal mechanisms in place. You know as well as I do that there are crimes where the person is guilty, guilty, guilty. No doubts, red handed, witnessed, signed sealed and delivered. These are the cases I'm referring to.
I think capital punishment is justified when the criminal has commited murder. This of course needs to evaluated on a case by case basis, since not everyone may deserve the death sentence.
^^Woa...I think we may agree on something...better buy a lottery ticket....hehe
Suppose it had to happen eventually
Well, this scenario is seems to be a breech of the justice system. Obviously, a person who has committed those crimes should NEVER be eligible for parole. But, I do not think that putting people to death as a precaution against a justice system screw-up is logical or just.
My opinion on capital punishment is rather distorted. In theory, I do not think that it is right to kill a person for killing a person. Just seems like a Monthy Python movie gone bad(you didn't put in your quarter, I am not going to argue with you....).
I do think that our justice system(if you can call it that :rollseyes: ) needs a complete overhaul. People who deserve life in prison get paroled in 10, 15, 20 years, and habitual traffic offenders spend eons in prison. Again, just not logical. If forced to admit it, I would say that I would prefer to see some criminals put to death than live life on my dime. However, with the batting average of our justice system being nearly equal to the one I held in high school softball, I do not feel comfortable or confident ending a person's life. There have been many instances, after the execution, where the person was proven innocent. Oy! One innocent person put to death is unacceptable in my opinion.
Then, my mind wanders to the anthropological side of it all. Prison is primarily designed to protect the public, and secondarliy, punish the criminal. With a person in prison, theoretically, the public is safe. But, as Sky pointed out, the system often fails, and the prisoner is often paroled when s/he should not be. Then, there is the issue of taxpayers not wanting to foot the bill for prisoners. Oh, I feel that pain. But, at that point we must take an honest look at our society and figure out *why* we have so damn many prisoners to begin with. An ounce of prevention.... The United States has more prisoners per capita(nearly triple IIRC) than any other country. That speaks volumes to me. Apparently, reform is needed all around, in order to prevent this. However, I realize there will always be a few bad apples, and for them, I'm still torn.
Hmm. Might as well leave my two pence here.
In my opinion execution is never a solution.
I don’t believe that the society as an entity should seek revenge. In my opinion capital punishment is nothing else then a socially acceptable way to satisfy the collective desire to have blood for blood. There are less brutal possibilities for isolating murderers from the community. Death penalty isn’t a very effective crime deterrent either. (I’m sure that there aren’t many people who commit a crime thinking “Oh, I’ll probaly get ten years for this, but that’s okay, at least they can’t execute me.”. Most criminals act in a faith that they won’t be caught at all).
So, my view on this is that the government should avoid confirming people’s belief that justice means a right for vengeance.
I find it interesting that some of you say we shouldn't kill people for killing other people, and yet you would kill to defend and protect your family. Hmm, what's wrong with this picture? Isn't putting someone to death whom it is absolutely certain that they committed the crime. kind of the same thing as killing to protect family? You are making sure the person never gets parole. And Finrod, you said it is up to God whether or not people should die. Absolutely true, but that's why He said "Thou shalt not murder" and said that anyone who did murder would be executed.
Executed by whom?
Anyone who enjoys the freedom of today's society was bought that freedom by the blood and fight of their forefathers. If your country was under attack and your lives were at risk you would have no problem with your country's army killing to protect your country.
It's hypocritical to allow killing in one form and not the other.
If a dog killed a man, you would put it down. Same with any wild animal. A man has the ability to choose, if he chooses to kill contrary to the laws of our society, he deserves death in kind.
And for any of you that want to start thumping the Bible about what God wanted, don't just quote Exodus 20 (The Ten Commandments)
God even in the Bible provides for man to administer just punishment for crimes, so long as the punishment fits the crime.
But, if everyone would follow that rule, the globe would be one giant mess. Then you could finish everyone off, stabbing the others an eye, breaking a few billions bones, etc etc.
For me, exectution isn't justified. Sometimes it has the opposite effect. an example; that man in the US who killed a doctor because he helped aborting wives their babies (can't recall his name on the moment). He was put to death, but for him and his little, equal crazy, friends see this as a victory.
Again about that Bible-part; many people say "I believe in Him". But He (if he would have existed ) said "You shall not murder". You tell it to them, and on that moment they forget they're believing. THen they're coming with "But I don't want to have them living on my taxes" That's hypocrite.
No, for me being sentenced to imprissonment for life is a much better solution.
The passage from the Bible doesn't refer to making violence acceptable, it calls for the punishment to be just.
I'm sure the guy getting executed didn't feel the same way. Do you think he'll ever do it again? Do you think instead that after being in jail he would change? I doubt it.
I didn't want to get into a debate on whether or not there is or isn't a God (there is enough threads regarding that) but what I was pointing out was that even though the Bible states "Though shalt not Kill" was that it didn't mean EVER but that it meant FOR NO REASON or out of rage or malice. Thus the very next chapter talks about MAN'S ability to punish for these sins. The Bible is FILLED with killing, that in ways were justified.
As for the taxes part, I don't think it's hypocrittical at all. I resent working seven days a week and seeing a portion of my hard work going to criminals who are serving "life sentences", getting a college education, and 3 meals a day, cable TV and all the comforts of home, when impoverished but honest citizens don't get the same privilege. To me, that's the crime.
hmm, all forgot about this thread. and to think I was the one who started it....
Like the Lady of Shallott pointed out: It's unlogical that some people who are against death penalties, are willing to kill themselves if anything happenes to a person they love. I know that sounds strange but that's how it is. I do have constitutional problems with the death sentence but I am fully willing to kill anyone that lays a single hand on my girlfriend or little Daughter. strange? I guess so......
I do think however, that life in prison should mean life in prison and not 10 or 20 years.
People who have done things like murder and rape don't deserve a college education, cable tv
and all the nurturing they need on the costs of honest people who work their butts off for little money
seven days a week. Like Sky, I also think that's a crime. those people should be behind bars, on hard beds and in cold cellars.
Right. And I didn't mean to bring up the Bible and God thing, because that's not what the thread is about, but it just naturally popped to mind.
I still don't understand how you can say you would kill someone if they injured your family, but if they hadn't, well then, that's OK. It's just odd to me. That person hurt someone else. I know when its personal it's just different, but you still have to consider that every case is personal to someone.
Separate names with a comma.