Beren

Discussion in 'Books' started by Elan Morin Tedronai, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    I was re-reading The Silmarillion last night, most notable the story of Beren and Luthien. Something bothered me though, perhaps its something i can't recall the answer of, but I just can't figure it out.

    When Beren is bitten by Carcharoth and he dies, why does his soul go to the Halls Of Mandos ? He is not an Elf, shouldn't he go to whatever fate awaits Men ? The only thing I can see is that Luthien asked him to wait for her there, but surely her will doesn't over ride that of Eru Illuvatar.

    For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the Halls Of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien cameto say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. Pg 220, Harper Collins Papeback
     
  2. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    Well, it's been a while for me, but I think that the answer lies in their love for each other. My understanding of the whole thing is that when Beren died, the bond between he and Tinuviel was so great that his soul didn't want to leave the world. In return, Tinuviel, pled with the gods not to spilt the two of them up. Manwe then spoke to Illuvatar and they made the one exception in history to the rules of the fates of men and elves, returning both of them to the world.
     
  3. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    My impression is when men die, they too go to the Halls of Mandos, but they do not linger there. From the Halls of Mandos their souls set out to whereever they go beyond the circles of the world. Elves souls remain there until they are reborn.

    I'll look in the Sil and Book of Lost Tales to find you a couple of quotes to support this. :)
     
  4. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    Thats what I was thinking, that perhaps their souls go to the Halls Of Mandos, then on to somewhere else. Okay, it makes sense now. Thanks guys.
     
  5. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    Okay, another question. This one's about Feanor. Did he eventually get pardoned by the Valar or does his spirit still dwell in The Halls Of Mandos ?
     
  6. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    Hmm, good question. I don't recall specifically. The Valar forgave the Noldor in general, but I think that was for the Kinslaying and fleeing of Valinor. Feanor's crimes were greater still since he turned his back on the oportunity to save the trees.
     
  7. Aenónar

    Aenónar Elf of Arda Tauréndor

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    If I remember correctly, Mandos were split into two parts, one for Elves and one for Men. but the Men didn't stay there but continued out from the world..
     
  8. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    Okay, another question. I was watching FOTR yesterday, and Galadriel says "I have passed the test. I will diminish, and pass into the West, and remain Galadriel." Now I haven't looked at the book yet, but Im sure she says something similiar.

    My question is thus....by not giving in to temptation, and letting Frodo keep the One, is her ban from Valinor removed ? How would she know this, and why - being an original exiled Noldo - would she be forgiven just for that ? Or have I missed the point completely.....
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2004
  9. Aenónar

    Aenónar Elf of Arda Tauréndor

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    that has been widely discussed, Tolkien had many version about if she were banished or if it she wasn't... But I believe in the Silmarillon, the ban was lifted after the fall on Morgoth (when Numenor were formed and all that) but that she wasn't aware of that.... I don't remember really how the discussion turned out.. I think it is on this forum somewhere
     
  10. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    Could someone perhaps find a link ? Im very interested in it.
     
  11. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    To the best of my knowlege, Galadriel knew the ban was lifted. Her objection was the Noldor were not being allowed to return to Valinor. They were being allowed to return to Tol Eressea a small Island off of the coast of Valinor. At that point she was still filled with pride and refused to be exiled to that island. Preferring her realm in Middle Earth. Once again, if you really want it I could find a direct quote. I think the best ones are in the UT, which is in my desk at work.

    Also, Feanor has not returned to Middle Earth ever. I remember a quote somewhere saying never again was his spirit of fire seen in Arda.
     
  12. defyitall

    defyitall Art House Member

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    I always took that line to mean that she passed the test of temptation and by not becoming evil she would remain her true self. I always took the "diminish" part to mean that once the one ring was destroyed her ring would lose its' power.
     
  13. MaximusAralias

    MaximusAralias New Member

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    ^^ Men also go to the halls of Mandos after death...