Beginning of life - from outer space?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by clouded_perception, Mar 6, 2007.

  1. Dwimmerlaik

    Dwimmerlaik Captain of Despair

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    Re: Beginning of life

    prove to me he dosnt exist. exactly you cant, and neither can i.
     
  2. clouded_perception

    clouded_perception clouded_perception

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    Re: Beginning of life

    How are these relevant to anything? Could you explain?

    On another point, how is "God has always been there" even a fraction as believable as "the potential for life has always been there", given contiuous observation of the potential for the evolution and increasing complexity of life and no evidence at all for the existence of a god?
    Also remembering that by the creationists own argument god would have to be a lot more complex than the universe, god doesn't answer the question -- he increases the problem dramatically, and then fobs it off with wordplay.
     
  3. Jendra

    Jendra Jendra

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    Re: Beginning of life

    I was replying to Unraveller's post.

    Wordplay? Please explain what you mean.
     
  4. clouded_perception

    clouded_perception clouded_perception

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    Re: Beginning of life

    By calling something unknowable or pushing the problem into the infinite past (what Pratchett calls a "turtles all the way down" argument), you avoid the issue, yet you expect nonreligious people to answer the same questions. It's okay for you to simply say we're not intelligent enough to know, but not okay for us, which is a double standard.

    Full explanations are a reasonable expectation. In science, "we're not intelligent enough to know" or similar aren't evidence, so it is reasonable to expect people defending their favoured theories to back it up with evidence. But this applies to god, too. If you can't back it up scientifically, your arguments do not have equal footing with science; they are irrelevant.

    Similarly, "turtles all they way down" arguments (like god was always there) avoid the issue, they don't address it. Although you look disbelievingly at the existence of a universe without apparent cause, you apply none of this doubt to an infinitely more complex (as well as conscious) creature existing without cause. Saying 'he's always been there' doesn't explain this at all, it just avoids the issue.
     
  5. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Re: Beginning of life

    To put it frankly Jendra, at this point in time you have no argument against evolution.
    I have heard many creationist say that there is scientific proof, evidence is what they should say, that the world is young and that all animals were made as they are.
    But yet, where is this evidence, if they say its overwhelming how come its impossible to find, and how come not one creationist I talk to can bring forth this evidence.

    Your still avoiding the whole issue here, if you dont have the evidence admit it, if you do, give it.
    You make it sound that the belief in God solves everything, well it doesnt, I believe in God have all my life, read the Bible many a times over, listened and read things by creationism "scientists" and have learned nothing that argues against an old earth.

    Now I may not have always beleived in evolution ( I do know, just that God began it but still I believe in evolution ) but I have always for as long as I can remember believed the earth to be billions of years old.

    You say that there is evidence to contradict this. Where Is It??
     
  6. Jendra

    Jendra Jendra

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    Re: Beginning of life

    All around. I have explained already that the universe is the evidence.

    That and I was told by a woman who had a degree in molecular biology that fossil fuels don't form over millions of years...they form quickly due to intense pressure.
     
  7. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Re: Beginning of life

    That there is a universe is not evidence, it is neither evidence for or against creationism
     
  8. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Re: Beginning of life

    http://www.ase.org/uploaded_files/educatorlessonplans/fossil.pdf
    http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761586407/Fossil_Fuels.html
    http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/middle/import.htm

    "The presence of oil in a reservoir is the result of a
    whole sequence of more or less probable events spreading
    over time intervals from several tens to several hundred
    millions of years." (B Durand / A History of Organic Geochemistry Oil & Gas Science and Technology – Rev. IFP, Vol. 58 (2003), No. 2, pp. 203-231)

    There's four pieces of reputable evidence to support the 'millions of years' theory, can you supply some for the 'Young Earth' hypothesis?
     
  9. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Re: Beginning of life

    Again Jendra, you are giving us your opinions. This and the other thread ask for scientific evidence, not what goes on in your head, you are way too deep into this discussion to use opinions as your evidence.
     
  10. Jendra

    Jendra Jendra

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    Re: Beginning of life

    My "opinion" is based on studies of a possibility of a worldwide flood. Not just lots of rain, but the earth itself cracking open (hence separate continents). The "just right" conditions, according to the word of a scientist that I know, would have existed during a world-wide flood. There would have been intense pressure on the plant and animal matter, converting it into oil and coal.
     
  11. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Re: Beginning of life

    Then post a link to these studies. If it's a valid theory there must be plenty of information on it.
     
  12. Jendra

    Jendra Jendra

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    Re: Beginning of life

    See, the problem on here with that is that none of you will accept the studies because they might have a hint of creation science in them. I'll look for ones as neutral as possible, if they exist.
     
  13. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Re: Beginning of life

    Post what you've got, let us decide if they're acceptable of not.
     
  14. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Re: Beginning of life

    Ducking and dodging.
    Ive read the creationist view of coal and oil, and how they think that the world was once a blob of water in space and how the center of the earth was water...and how it never rained before Noah's flood.
    All that doesnt make sense because there is no evidence. Scientist have already calculated that if EVERY bit of the earth was covered by water the barometric pressure in the atmosphere would be so great the it would crush any living thing, so noah would be killed. And noah's flood looses meaning since there are older documentations that predate noah by several thousand years that speak of a great flood.
    One needs to take in consideration, back in those times people believed that the known world was all they could see, they couldnt fathom land thousands of miles away. So a flooded "world" would be more like a nation. And we have discovered that Mesopotamia was once flooded, Mesopotamia was of course the first recorded civilization.
     
  15. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Re: Beginning of life

    I really wonder how he kept the animals alive...where did he get the food for them? Did he just feed the herbivores to the carnivores or something lol. j/K
     
  16. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Re: Beginning of life

    Here is the creationist site, read the tan sidebar for their idea of the creation of the earth.
    Look around the site too, they say there is all this evidence but..all I see is people grasping at straws, misinterpreting the Bible, and using those two things to come up with 'indisputable" proof.

    There alot of information there...but...well youll see.

    http://www.creationevidence.org/cemframes.html
     
  17. Jendra

    Jendra Jendra

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    Re: Beginning of life

    Curious...who has said that the earth was a blob of water? That would actually go against the Creationist view. And I've heard theories about a tropical environment over the whole earth. (Canopy, perhaps.) There may have actually been water under the earth that flooded upward (cracking the continents apart.) If there was indeed a canopy over the planet, then the atmosphere might have been different.
     
  18. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Re: Beginning of life

    Click the link then click on the 2nd session, it says the world was originally a blob of shapeless water.
     
  19. Jendra

    Jendra Jendra

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    Re: Beginning of life

    Hmm...I always took "without form and void" to mean a blank earth (core and crust) with nothing else, not as just simply water. That's a very odd idea to me.
     
  20. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Re: Beginning of life

    No, the earth started out as a volvanic mass, over millions of years, the atmosphere changed and cooled, creating a crust. It would have remained that year for again countless years, but the change of the atmosphere and the bonding of hydrogen and oxygen which eventually cooled with the atmosphere instead of gasses became liquid, water.

    This would have covered the earth and covered a vast majority of it, leaving an enormous land mass which is the collected continents and islands we know today (minus of course islands that have been created or destroyed through volcanic activities) This enormous continent was known as Pangea and really the rest is simple, because we all know it...life began in the water (because the presence of water always means a planet is suitable to contain life even on a molecular level) Lifeforms moved to land, plants were created, mammals etc... the continents cracked and moved apart set the way they are now. It's simple as Pi.;)