Another blasphemous show...

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Oct 12, 2012.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    The movie about Mohammed may have stirred giant demonstrations in the muslim world,but here,in Greece a blasphemous theatrical show was to appear but cancelled after citizens,clergy and some Golden Dawn party members protested against it.

    However,this has caused a lot of arguements and some of the TV channels call the protestants as having "medieval views" or "dark-aged opinions".A lot of leftists argue that it's only art,but for Orthodox Christians who are the majority in Greece,a blasphemous theatrical play that wants to portray the Lord as a homosexual along with other anti-Christian and blasphemous elements,is something that provokes and incites anger and frustration.
     
  2. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    'Its only art' This rates as one of the top reasons I left art school. You really think that it being 'art' lets you get away with anything, without a second guess as to what you're getting at? I'm a little slow, but I'm not THAT stupid.

    While I will not condone the whole 'they insulted what we value therefore we should kill them' mentality of certain other religious nuts if you show me a Christian who isn't offended by their God being portrayed as something deemed an abomination, I will show you a liar.

    And sort of on-topic, this whole 'Haha, I can piss you off, cause emotional harm, and stress you out and you can't do anything about it and if you do I'll play the victim and put all the blame on you" bulls*** has to stop.
     
  3. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it should have been allowed.
     
  4. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    We live in a world with 7 billion people in it, learn to ignore people you don't agree with. There are people who call Canadians pussies, people who call french (my family on my mothers side) arrogant wimps, people who say that every dutch person (my family on my dad's side) just smokes weed all day, people who say that atheism, my religion, is the worst thing to ever happen to the world. If you don't learn to ignore them you're gonna come across as a prick, and then when people call you that they're actually right instead of just being ignorant.
     
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  5. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    So yes, I think it should have been allowed. I would not have seen it or encouraged people to see it though, because it sounds distasteful and kind of boring. But that's just my opinion.
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I never understood that,why do people and mostly Americans call Canadians stuff?Canadians are very good people.
     
  7. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    Most of it is joking but there is so much joking it can be demeaning. Many Americans kind of gloat about how we would turn up #1 for a long time and Canada having a similar culture to ours it becomes a strange thing to joke about. Canada is like our conjoined twin, but lots of people have a nationalistic superiority complex called patriotism and this is promoted by our politicians, so you get lots of vocal Americans that want to dump on every other country even if it is startlingly similar.

    That is only for certain people though, it is again a very subjective thing. I'm sure citizens of other countries would assume their religion or culture is superior to others, it isn't out of the ordinary for people to think this. Canada just happens to be closer and more of a thing to talk about for many Americans so you hear the pricks vocalize about it more often.

    Too many people have forgotten they are human and insist they are part of something far lesser just because of sentiment, not because of ideals or goals.
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    From what I know,Americans make fun of Canada and mock it and the Canadians themselves are angry and mock the Quebec Canadians.Who in turn like normal French snub and laugh the rest of Canada...let's say the British part of Canada :p
     
  9. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    People call Americans fat and stupid and ignorant all the time. I don't consider myself to be any of those things.

    Anyone from any country who puts an entire nation of people into one group is ignorant.
     
  10. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    People are free to see what they want, if you dont like dont go to see it, and stop complaining, Religion is an old unneeded thing people are forced to keep, because Church makes too much money out of it - so yeah, it is all about money nothing else, it is the truth religious people cant see.
     
  11. Lady Cyllíeth

    Lady Cyllíeth WillExplodeUnderPressure

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    I disagree. It's also about power. :p

    I don't think anyone has the right to make fun of other people's views/lifestyles like religion or whatever. I don't see the point of provoking religious people either since it is well known that most of them are way too sensitive and have no sense of humour. They are pretty much like apple fanboys.
     
  12. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    well I can say it in one sentence: f**k all religions
     
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  13. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    and people who have had religious experiences and realize that religion is much more than just a church building with some dude talking out of a book...
     
  14. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    You know. I thought having some non-conformist art expression going on in Greece - Athens - would be a good thing.

    I read about this. from what I understand, the play concerned is Corpus Christi. The producers can only have sought to confront the audience at large, at which it seems to have succeeded. Since Greece is currently in a deep crisis which, no doubt, is much deeper than the financial one, I think it pays off to ask these kinds of questions of identity. Only when you dare to confront yourself (or, rather, the people you share society with) can you figure out who you are and where you're going.

    The analysis of the cancellation is interesting. I mean, I don't think this play would have staged in absence of the ongoing crisis. But the interesting thing is - would the reaction have been the same in a calmer Greece? I wonder. Matters being as they are, though, I also wonder what the average Greek (Athenian?) thinks of this play. Whether a majority would support a ban, for instance. Or that the producers folded for one or a few subsections of societies at the extremities of opinion.

    I also wonder whether this cancellation gives any direct hint as to the direction of Greek society. Of course, it might indicate a move away from liberalism in favour of a more theocratic or conservative society. It might, of course, also provide a new reference (low-) point to intellectuals. Of course, both might hold true and it might end up providing evidence of how Greece is going through polarization.

    I think the biggest fear elsewhere is that this cancellation is another sign of a Weimar-esque direction in Greek society. I suppose all elements are there, though not in great enough a quantity...
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Hmm interesting post Turambar.I think yes,it would have the same(if not much larger)reaction in a calmer Greece,but with far less Golden Dawn members probably.

    The Golden Dawn members and activists have only after their recent electoral victory started playing a major role on society.I mean yes you could have had some Golden Dawn members in a similar protest years ago,but probably far too less.Notice that I say probably and far too less.

    Because Golden Dawn had a mostly more "national-socialist neo-paganist" style years ago and not that much of a true Byzantine Orthodox style...or identity if you know what I mean.

    Let's not forget that many years ago when the Church and the State crashed,back then I think it was during the Simitis prime minister rule of PASOK,the Simitis era,the government had tried to impose a series of things which the Orthodox Christians of Greece found unthinkable and didn't want all that.It's a bit complicated but in the end the Archbishop of Athens and all of Greece Christodoulos had gathered a GIGANTIC crowd to protest against the government and in support of the Church in my city.And I am talking about a sea of people.A gargantuan gathering.

    Right now though people are mostly like "oh well we don't have money any more so who cares about insulting shows and stuff like that".They tried to kneel our spirit down by using the money factor.

    So you'll get people saying stuff like above,like "We don't have food,so that's our first priority now".We still have food don't worry,but you get the idea,right?
     
  16. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    if you are women, merry me.

    I am ready and eager to travel, I have ~300Eur for wedding ring.

    If you don`t like science, then f*ck you.
    "New Scientist"

    If with religious experience you mean glitch in the brains, that made you feel smth, then I might agree with you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Golden Dawn is not new. I don't think the lime light graces them very well, or so it would appear. They seem to take on some distinctive fascist traits. I wonder, though, what part of their electorate agrees with them - and what part is completely disillusioned with the way things have gone in the recent past. I would agree, though, that their involvement would have been highly limited if it weren't for recent developments.

    Ah, you say people. I like it when people say people. It turns out, they usually mean "some people who I make to represent society". That's called populism :)

    Yes, I don believe that the majority of Greeks, probably even Athens, would identify themselves with the moniker "Orthodox". And if the Archbishop of Athens speaks, Greece listens. From what I gather, he didn't enter the debate, though. And of course, the Church will raise its voice when it feels threatened by politics in their position in society. Of course they will try to amass support. But in the general scheme of things, this play is a minor event with limited exposure. Would the Orthodox church have taken offense if the play would have staged in a calmer Greece? Very likely. In absence of protests from other parties, would they have made a public statement against the play? Possibly (risking a Streisand backlash). Would they actually have called for a cancellation? I wonder. It's dangerous to make such a bold statement. And I am still unaware that they officially did so in reality.

    On the other hand, would the People of Greece have acted against this play in calmer times? Unless there was a strict fatwa against it, I really doubt it. There is much more room for tolerance in calmer times. And this is Athens we are talking about - an altogether liberal bastion an an otherwise rather conservative country. Now the atmosphere in Greece is tense (at the very least), I think it's much easier for thing to snap. Currently, I don't think it takes particularly much for intolerance or violence to spark.
     
  18. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    That's what I'm telling you the people would act in a calmer Greece.That's why I mentioned that example where the late Archbishop Christodoulos had gathered millions of people in Thessaloniki.

    But listen,apart from probably a part of the faithful which are just grannies and old women who don't know a lot,many of the Greek Orthodox are smart,thinking people.I mean,if you got the idea that someone says something and a million follows like sheep,that's not always correct.There are lots of young people who support the Church.

    The idea between "sheep" in the bad sense won't be found that much in Greece.The idea of sheep with the good sense,guided by a caring shepard,which is the Church is what is happening here.

    Yes they would react.And in Greece there are still people who do not want blasphemy of something that is so sacred for us.It's just not art,it's provokative,blasphemous degradation of art.

    Now I see you mentioned the Weimar Republic a bit earlier my friend,I know that many compare Greece of 2012 with the Weimar Republic of Germany.Truth is that Golden Dawn rose to power for various reasons.Some of which I believe are:

    The dissolution or weakening of other patriotic/nationalistic/right-wing parties that were much more moderate than Golden Dawn.For example LA.O.S. fell and a part of its voters went to New Democracy and others to the Golden Dawn.They turned there.

    Another reason is that New Democracy and other parties are only TALK.Only blah blah blah and no actions against things that the average Greek and mostly Athenean too care about: Safety,kicking or controlling the illegal/legal immigrants,putting the Greek first and foremost in society and then all the others and no corruption.

    Golden Dawn,simply offers them all that.With their activism they have gained the love and support of various neighborhoods or districts of Athens and other cities and places in Greece.They simply care or at least SHOW TO THE PEOPLE that they care.Something that other parties were either too corrupt to do or feared political casualties in the future elections.

    Every single day you hear on the news about immigrants mostly Albanians,Pakistanis,Afghanis,G0eorgians/ex-USSR who commit various crimes.And the people are sooo fed up with it.The leftist parties ALWAYS side with the immigrants.I mean...ALWAYS.It's a rule for them.And out of fear of the left-wing political parties the other right ing or centre parties do nothing about that.But Golden Dawn doesn't even care about political costs and stuff the left-wings will call them.
    They go right there to the people and say "You know what grandpa?I'll escort you to the bank.I'll escort you to the market.I'll protect you from the ghetto."

    Plus they are so not-corrupt in comparison with the other parties.That's how they gain support.They simply give things to the people that other parties only promise them and after the elections COMPLETELY forget.
     
  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    There is no good sheep, bad sheep... just plain old sheep, and sheep always become someone's supper.

    The Golden Dawn Cult is a fascist organization fashioned after the Nazi Party... if it talks like a Nazi, if it walks like a Nazi... it is a Nazi. You Mr.Foinikas, and your gay-hating immigrant-bashing Greek Orthodox brethren, will be tossed on to the trash heap of History.
     
  20. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Fixed it for you.