Anakin-Darth Vader

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by Galad, Mar 1, 2006.

?

Anakin who was it?

  1. Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    4.2%
  2. Anakin himself.

    45.8%
  3. The Jedi Order.

    4.2%
  4. Senator Palpatine.

    45.8%
  1. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    The killing in the temple...I wouldn't call that a good thing...but the good in him was indeed that he was a man back in slavery who lost his family...his love for his son, the love he still had for Padme...yes that would be the good in him. When Padme tried to convince Anakin she saw that he indeed changed but that he was still confused, manipulated...When the years passed Darth Vader only became more evil as we know him from the classic trilogy, but Luke found the good in him back again. Although he didn't realise it yet. Vader loved his son, he didn't just want to use him.
     
  2. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    I voted for Palpatine, but ultimately its Anakin. Here's why. It's Anakins fault he was susceptible to Palpatines influence. This susceptability and/or gullibility gave Palpatine his opening. If Palpatine hadn't discovered and lured him, someone else probably would have. But I voted Palpatine cause he was the first to take advantage of it. He was responsible for exploiting Anakin. But surely Anakin himself would have imploded without anyone's help if his didnt change the range of his vision. This seemingly inability to see the world in any other way than his own was destined to make him use his skills and talents to serve his own vision and no one else's. Perhaps without dark influences, he may have just become a rogue jedi, outside the bounds of the rest. Not necessarily being a dark jedi, but being in his own mind in what he did.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  3. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Who would that be and with what purpose?

    The reason Anakin wasn't capable of protecting himself from manipulation is 10 years of friendship and the fear of loss. Plus he had a master who was constantly lecturing him while Palpatine only complimented him. Of course you'll listen to the one who only praises you instead to the one who lectures you... He knew he was being manipulated in the end... Blackmailed, but what could he do, the damage was done, he killed all the Jedi so there was no way to turn back. And yeah in the films there is no such thing as a dark jedi... Because he was so consumed by the Dark Side, it truly did blind him from the truth until Luke was the only one who could reveil it.
     
  4. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    interstingly no one has mentioned the death of Anakin's mother. Now aside from at first blaming himself, I think he goes on to console himself to the pain the he abdoned her by again adding it to the blames of the Jedi Counsel. He saw that through them he was again a slave again - forced to do only what he was told and when he was told.
    In a way this was a failing of the order to Anakin - because in leaving his mother on Tatooine there is a high chance of her coming to harm - its not a safe place, and yet with all thier resources they do nothing
     
  5. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    Theirs no shortage of self centered ambitious characters willing to use a powerful, gullible jedi to serve their own ends. As far as who that might be, Dooku and General Grievous come to mind in that time period. Now, if we pretend for a moment that Palpatine kept Dooku as his apprentice and went on to create the "Empire" without Anakin and everything else happened more or less as it did. Then by the time the EU began, factions of the Imperial Remnant, Thrawn or Pellion would be good guesses.

    As far as his lectures go, he got them mostly due to his attitude and belligerence. I cant blame Obi-wan for trying to correct his behavior.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  6. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    Anakin failed the jedi order, not the other way around, imo. Their was no way the jedi council was going into Hutt territory and remove a slave so that Anakin's feelings could be spared. Additionally, it was the jedi mindset at the time to lessen attachments to loved ones, not appease them.
     
  7. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    additonal though, you have to remember that whilst this mindest is in there are some differences with anakin compared to regular cadets:

    1) Anakin is older in starting his training that most others - thus he already has a greater attachment to his family than many of the others - who have grown up with the concept of separation

    2) Most other cadets had families within the Republic, and thus were safe from the widespread crimes on Tatooene - such as slavery. Thus it can be argued that in many cases the cadets do not need to worry about their families for hte greater part - they are more likley to be self sufficient and capable

    also consider that this mindset of isolation was in part what led the Jedi to fail - by becomming complacent and = essentially - a high class of being who were to tied to the rest of society.
     
  8. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Indeed it was a mistake to train Anakin in the first place... It was ignorance, they think about the Jedi prophecy, they know Anakin is the Chosen One, but never does it state that the Chosen One should be a Jedi, so it was partially their mistake to train Jedi in the first place.
    As about the lectures... It takes two to tango, Anakin never listened to Obi-Wan because he never listened to Anakin, this was because their relationship as master-apprentice was not willingly, Obi-Wan never chose Anakin as his apprentice which started a bad relationship between the two.
    And I ask you again if Palpatine never would have seduced Anakin to the Dark Side? Who would? Dooku? No... Cause in the end, he was more a politician... I read that when he died, he realised he was still in actuallity still a Jedi, just on the wrong side. He saw Anakin as a rival, so he would rather have him killed than seduced and Grievous is no power hungry Sith... He was a killer and would rather have Anakin's lightsaber, instead of Anakin himself at his side.
     
  9. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    My point is......Anakin's ambitions would have driven him to no good even if all the above had not happened.
     
  10. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    While Anakin's situation was certainly different, the jedi council wasnt prepared to throw generations of protocol out the window for one student, even Anakin.

    I also dont think isolation invariably leads to complacency. To me, these were two different issues. I agree the jedi were victim to both however.
     
  11. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    In this case, Qui-gon deserves the blame for he set it all in motion.
     
  12. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    I believe its the apprentice who is supposed to listen to the master, not the other way around.
     
  13. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    And Palpatine wasnt a politician?

    Lets say Dooku had discovered Anakin before Palpatine. Do you think he would have ignored the potential Anakin had? I dont.

    Perhaps Dooku was on the fence between dark and light. If for no other reason, he may have taken on the task to train Anakin out of loyalty to Qui-gon. Perhaps Sith training, perhaps not.

    And although Grievous wouldnt have taken Anakin as a apprentice, he might have exposed him to what dark energy is if Palpatine had not. All Anakin needed was awareness of that side of the force to start embracing it. His past had sown too much hate in Anakin for him not to discover the dark side of force eventually.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  14. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    An apprentice should listen, respect and obay his master
    but the master must also listen and respect the pupil as well. Obi-Wan was, I think, a little to green for training Anakin, a little too freash out of school himself. Further more his training was not out of desire to train, but more out of his sense to duty and loyalty to his trainer - Qui-Gon.
    Also, whilst Qui-Gon set things into motoin for the training of Anakin, I think things would have gone very differently had Qui-Gon not been killed - however this is an area of theory only - but I think things would have gone differently.

    As to whether Anakin would always have been tempted - I think there is that tempation in all people and all it takes is events in life to lead us down the wrong path -- Anakin lost his mother and that event started the major run towards the dark side for him I think. Up until that point there was only temptation = but little more than that - after her death there was the feeling of betrayle from the Jedi Order who could have easily taken his mother from Tatooine with little problems - take a single slave from a world in secret, simple. However Anakin also had that childlike feeling (probably because he left young) that his mother and life on Tatooine would continue on without him as it had done already - he got a sharp kick back into reality the nasty way which also blineded him
     
  15. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    I agree here. Yoda should have trained Anakin. But then, Yoda didnt think Anakin should be trained at all.
     
  16. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    With better guidance Anakin would have done better even if he was ambitious, he was also loyal... I see Anakin as misguided, but not evil. As Obi-Wan said, he was deceived by a lie as everybody else. So with better guidance like if Qui-Gon would have lived, he would have turned out fine, cause he had a much better bond with Qui-Gon from the beginning.
     
  17. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    I'll agree that he would have stood a better chance with Qui-gon. And ill agree Anakin was'nt inherently a evil person. But his loyalties I do contend were dubious.
     
  18. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    hmm His Loyalties were to himself, his mother, his lover and his friends (broadly speaking)
    His mother died
    His lover was denied to him by his order
    He never had many friends within the Jedi; and thier operations limited friends without

    Thus in the end all he had left was himself and his friends - the only one to stick around was Palpatine.
    its a crude break down - but it works
    however they are also the loyalties that were in a sense given to him by his upbringing in a harsh world - though when younger himself was less important as he got older this became more dominant as the other groups became more distant from him and less in number
     
  19. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Yes he was loyal to everybody he loved (or possessed) however he was also loyal to the republic... It wasn't in his control that it changed into the empire, that was palpatine's work. Anakin truly believed that was doing a good thing towards the galaxy if he would overthrow palpatine, cause he believed he and Padmé would make it better, though it was also his lust for recognition and power that corrupted him.

    However when he said the words "I will not betray the republic" when he knew palpatine was going to change it into an empire, he didn't lie and hoped that with him overthrowing palpatine he would save what was left of the republic. What he wanted (and you can see it in the ep IV novel) is some kind of Sith Order, basically a new Jedi Order with him controlling it.
     
  20. jim1961

    jim1961 New Member

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    Lets see if Jacen Solo succeeds in this where Anakin Skywalker failed.