Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by LyannaWolfBlood, Aug 11, 2011.
Is that what GRRM has promised??
(Sorry I don't really check his "Not a blog" thing anymore)
No, he hasn't said anything about the publication date. Wise choice, IMO.
I believe that Werthead on Westeros (or Ran, or someone else similarly more informed than the rest of us plebeians) speculated that GRRM probably won't even begin work on TWOW until next year. So, yeah.
I figured that would be the case, so another 5 + years of waiting and bitching and moaning about the progress!!
Perhaps we should speculate on which new introduced character and storyline will bite the dust next!?
Dany is obviously Azor Ahai, Melissandre's visions and the legends have given us ample evidence of that.
I believe Aegon is who they say he is. The Targaryen look is distinctive, if he wasn't they wouldn't have had to dye his hair. The epilogue shows how far Varys will go for his own aims and the memories of others bear out the likelihood of corpse-substitution.
Jon isn't dead. No proof, other than the fact that we didn't see him dead, or hear anything else from the Wall by the end.
Jon is the bastard of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The Dragon has three heads, Dany, Argon and Jon.
I wonder what impact the Mountain Flesh Golem (aka Ser Rob Strong) will have. With Ser Kevan gone Cersei may be able to regain power...
And what about Jamie? Brienne's found a Stark, not far away? Did I miss her finding Sansa and are they going to storm the Eyrie and kill Littlefinger? Dorne and the Vale are the only two kingdoms with their strength fairly intact...
The Faceless Men will be set on Tommen by the Iron Bank. Btw, I thought the poisoned coin was genius...
Nice to see you, Rav, how have you been?
She does say that when she looks for Azor Ahai in her fire she sees only Snow. Jon?
I don't agree. First of all, the look isn't that distinctive. It's present in other people with Valyrian blood, such as Aurane Waters who reminds Cersei of Rhaegar. The description of Illyrio's wife also accords fairly well with the Targaryen look, and the prostitute Jorah was with when he found Tyrion sounds like the spitting image of Dany (not creepy at all, that...). You have a point about the hair dye but, after all, he's supposed to be Connington's son. Dyeing his hair helps him hide the fact that Connington and he look nothing alike. As for memories, the only relevant one seems to be Kevan's and all he thinks is that you couldn't see the child's face. That's not enough to convince me, personally.
I agree that Varys would go very far to achieve his own aims; I just don't see why Varys would go so far to restore a dynasty that he has no reason to be loyal to. To me, it makes far more sense that Varys - the lowborn eunuch who made his name living by his wits on the streets - would get a kick out of putting someone who has no noble blood whatsoever on the throne. I also think it's significant that they are putting so much effort into Aegon's education; they're trying to construct the perfect ruler and I don't think Varys and Illyrio, both of whose commoner origins are made clear in ADWD, would consider bloodline to make one a better ruler. ADWD also mentions that their friendship originates from their time running scams together in their youth. IMO Aegon is their greatest scam.
That being said, the most compelling reasons for me are historical. When things were chaotic, princes who died in suspicious circumstances had an uncanny ability to come back to life - and were invariably (I think; can't think of a genuine case offhand) pretenders. Perkin Warbeck was probably the most famous case, and this occurred during the Wars of the Roses which ASOIAF is supposedly based on. There were others too, such as the Dimitry, the son of Ivan the Terrible, who had three impersonators in the early 1600's (after dying in the 1590's). I think it would have been more surprising if a pretender or two didn't turn up.
I'm more-or-less positive that was a ruse to lure him away. Sansa has yet to kill Littlefinger, but hopefully the operative word in that sentence is "yet"...
I think this is very plausible. The issue of the Crown's debt has been bubbling away in the background since AGOT - IIRC it came up in Ned's very first council meeting - but it hasn't come to the fore yet. I'd rather they went after Cersei but, unfortunately, I agree that Tommen is more likely.
Not bad, a bit busy and distracted Good to see you're still here.
Freakily, my book fell open at the right page...
A few lines later she says the same when he asks about Mance. Interestingly, this is showing the cold (the snowstorm) overcoming the power of the Fire God...
The bit in between was what absolutely clinched it for me though:
From previous books we know that Lightbringer required the life of the one Azor Ahai held most dear, his wife. Dany : Drogo => Dragons, weapons of fire
I believe we have a lot more to find out about Varys, we've only just scratched the surface of his story. He's been behind events from the start. In fact, I'd be very surprised if he hadn't whispered in Joffrey's ear and convinced him to execute Ned. I just noticed, and I could easily be mistaken here, that Varys is the only major character not described in the appendix... I have a feeling he harbours a loyalty to the Targaryen line for some reason. People can be weird about monarchy.
I don't have the time right now to dig up quotes on Jon, Quentyn and others, research project for another day, but I'd say Jon's eyes fit and Quentyn's didn't.
Damn, Eeeeeeeeeefs laying down the big bucks. For real, though--absolutely fascinating information about historical pretenders.
I'm pretty sure that Aoife and I have the same opinions on the series thus far, more or less, so I'll allow her eloquence to speak for me. Mostly wanted to drop in and say hi to Rav too. Long time no see!
High praise indeed, Lia!
Symbols can have layered meanings though. "Snow" could easily mean both the snowstorm and Jon.
I can't claim any credit for this interpretation - I read it elsewhere - but what about the ending to Jon's final chapter?
There's your smoke and salt; all we need now is for Jon to be reborn. He does seem to be dead which is the first step to reincarnation . Admittedly, "red star bleeds" is a bit more problematic (the person who originally proposed this suggested Ser Patrek, whose sigil is a blue star and who gets torn to pieces immediately before this, is the "[once blue, now]red star [which] bleeds" but I'm not convinced by that). I don't deny that your interpretation is a definite possibility, but a smoking wound is still intriguing...
Oh, we definitely have a lot to find out about Varys and he could easily be behind Ned's execution. But Varys isn't even a Westerosi; he comes from the Free Cities where the ruling system appears to be closer to oligarchy than monarchy as well as being a lowborn, self-made man. It's true that people can sometimes be weird and irrational about monarchy but Varys' personal circumstances mean that he strikes me as being possibly the least likely character to feel that way. He's also in quite a precarious position in King's Landing - the only power he has is the fact that he is such a good spymaster. He points out himself at one point (I had a quick look for this but couldn't find it; it's in either AGOT or ACOK) that he survives by making himself indispensable to everyone because he has no allies and his skill as a spymaster is his only asset. [The exact context is that either Ned or Tyrion asks him if he will keep a secret from Cersei and he replies that no, if she asks him he will tell her everything he knows because it would be more than his life is worth to lie to the Queen.] He knows that he's disposable and I don't see why he'd put himself at risk for the Targaryens. However, he might take a risk to further his own ends.
I'm slightly confused about what you're up to here - are you trying to see if the various people who potentially have Targ blood have eyes that fit that description? Because I'm almost positive that Jon has grey eyes (although I do believe that he's a Targ).
There's a possible balance, that Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised are not the same person. In one of Dany's visions she saw Rhaegar, talking about Aegon. He said he was The Prince That Was Promised, that his was the Song of Ice and Fire. If Jon is his son then he is of Stark (Ice) and Targaryen (Fire) blood...
Dany saw that in the House of the Undying, Varys and Illyrio could be coming from that belief and that is why they're meddling in the Seven Kingdoms...
Aegon is not just a potential ruler in Westeros, he's also another Azor Ahai candidate as well. After all, soooo many fans of the series have approached GRRM with the theory that Jon is both Azor Ahai and the Prince Who Was Promised... Entirely possible that people figured out one of the major plot twists of the series and GRRM decided to change his original plan by killing off Jon/Introducing Aegon... he wouldn't be the first fantasy author do do something of this nature. Heck, even if he's staying with his original plan, these two story threads are a major twist for people who follow that theory. Neither outcome would surprise me at this point, but I would fully expect some people to feel gyped if Aegon was made to be Azor Ahai.
Either way, this book was about what I would've expected after AFoK. GRRM seemed to have lost his way a bit in the 4th book. This book had to carry the baggage of the 4th book not having the more popular PoVs in it, and GRRM's original plan of moving the series 5 years forward for ADWD meeting heavy criticism... he changed his writing to meet these criticisms, and it shows.
If there's an overlying focus to ADWD, it's about coming of age/embracing your nature, which have been present in his earlier books, but is finally being pushed in ADWD. Melisandre more or less said it right out about Jon in one of the early chapters of the book when she said "he would be much stronger if he accepted the wolf, instead of fighting his nature". This is closely paralleled with Daenerys and her "am I a monster?", Bran and his disappointment with what he will become, Arya's training, ect. Tyrion and his self-remorse is of the same ilk.
Either way, the above story arcs all would've happened between books if GRRM had kept with the plan to push the series forward 5 years, and the shift made the book a bit awkward. None of these plot lines reached a meaningful closure either, which also makes this book a bit awkward.
Still, ADWD was a more enjoyable read than AFoK.
*Late Edit*: I'm also noticing that the series is moving from a historical fantasy to a more traditional fantasy. In the first three books magic very much took a back seat to politics (although it was still very significant. Note that EVERY book opens and closes with a magical occurrence of some sort), but the 4th and 5th books are moving toward magic swords and greenseers and face changing assassins and red priestesses as main plot elements. That has to be a bit off-putting for some readers, but it was set up to happen from the first book IMO.
Overall, I still feel that ADWD was a pretty good read. I wasn't super happy with it on my first read-through because it felt like a bunch of "cool scenes" about my favorite characters forced together, but it's flowing a lot better on the second reading.
I just finished, sorry for coming late to the discussion
I hate Martin. (I say that after every book, yet I keep buying his stuff...)
My fave character in the first book: Eddard. He kills him.
Okay then... Robb: He kills him.
Okay then Bran: He acts as if he kills him too.
Well, Jon evolved pretty awesome: WHAT THE ****?????
Okay, now someone tell me, that Melisandre will heal Jon, Ghost will tear out Bowen Marsh's ugly throat and all will be well?!
Stupid stupid stupid Jon should've had Ghost with him all the time!!! WHY (tf) didn't he listen to the red priestess.
She read the fires wrong, so? He should know better.
you know nothing Jon snow ARG!!!
Btw, does anyone else think that the one who led Bran to the cave could be Benjen Stark?
Yeah, I think there's a definitely possibility that that's (possibly undead) Benjen.
Also, I think you need to start hating all the characters, fast. It may be the only chance we have of saving them .
I'm out of characters to like by now.
Before this book, I was all for Arya, but her story is just dragging on... so I'm out of characters I like... (ergo: Some might survive, since I don't like'em anymore)
Sansa is stupid, Bran is at the end of the world, watching but not doing anything, I forgot where Rikkon is even living, hate Theon, always will, Catelyn turned into a monster too, Tyrion grew boring, Jaime lost his cockiness, Varys is gross, Connington too much like Stannis, Dany meets a horselord again...
I might consider liking Aegon, but that would risk getting him killed
So I'll be content with loving Bowen Marsh and Allyser Thorne. May they roast in hell
Some of the older posters who remember my post-red-wedding rant won't be surprised that I'm quite liking Lord Wyman Manderly now. Slice of Frey pie anyone?
I'll take two slices. <3 Manderly and I absolutely hate hate hate the Frey's, their arrogance and selfrighteousness
I loved this book. I read it three times in the month it came out. That being said I sincerely feel that Theon's chapters in this book are the most well written chapters in the series. Period.
Also, loved Bran as always (second favourite character), and Arya (Favourite always and ever).
Quentin is useless to me. Dany, Jon, and Ty were good. Connington was great. The Mel chapter was enlightening. Davos is awesome (Go Rickon!).
Separate names with a comma.