Abortion

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Sarah, Oct 21, 2003.

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Is abortion a justified act?

  1. Yes

    44 vote(s)
    53.7%
  2. No

    12 vote(s)
    14.6%
  3. Yes if only the situation threatens the mother and/or child

    26 vote(s)
    31.7%
  1. thesilentking

    thesilentking Tiocfaidh ár lá!

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    I chose my religion. I choose to follow its teachings. Therefore I believe abortion is wrong. Many others have not made that choice, however, and it is not my place to enforce my morality on them. Some use abortion as contraception, and for those who do I have nothing but contempt. Most, though, resort to such measures after much pain and anguish. I would not wish to make their suffering any worse by forcing them to carry a child they do not want. That, I feel, would be just another kind of evil.
     
  2. culein

    culein New Member

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    That's a reasonable attitude to take. I'm suspicious of those who try to impose their values on others. I always think they're covering up something quite unpleasant in their own character.
     
  3. Sláine

    Sláine I'm the silver cloud's dark lining...

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    I think you can view the lack of comeback as a checkmate on your part.;)
     
  4. SilverDragon.Xx

    SilverDragon.Xx New Member

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    In My Eyes the only thing that should make a woman have a abortion is if she is raped or the is a chance she or the baby will die in childbirth, also if the baby is going to have extreme disabilities! otherwise i would say it is murder, it might not breathe or have a heartbeat when first concieved it is still a living organism, the starting of a human child. If we were to kill a baby out of the womb it would still be classed as murder so why should a child with nothing wrong with it not get a chance like everyone else?
     
  5. culein

    culein New Member

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    For the reasons outlined in previous posts.
     
  6. clouded_perception

    clouded_perception clouded_perception

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    Nobody should EVER "make" a woman have an abortion.

    A sperm or oocyte is living, as are the bacterial colonies in your mouth. You murder millions of living organisms every time you brush your teeth.
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Such strong claims always gets me to get out my Book of Exceptions :D

    I found two. First of all, I can imagine severely retarded women who cannot decide properly for themselves. I'd hate to EVER get in that situation - it will be very difficult, but I can imagine an abortion decided for someone like this, especially since these sorts of conditions are often genetically determined and the situation might well get worse in the next generation. And there's no way the mother would be able to care or provide for the child....

    The other would be more subtle. Sometimes, women simply have no other choice. After all, it takes two to tango. And if the man strongly opposes to the child, the woman might be forced to abort by the situation she finds herself in.

    Sometimes people say it's immoral to leave a pregnant woman. However, I can't imagine a woman should be able to take a man hostage by that thought alone. A man can never decide for the woman (forgiving above situation ^^); but the outcome of the negotiation might be "sure you can keep it, but I won't be any part. You're on your own on this one".



    Sooo... yeah. That's about it.
     
  8. jman123678

    jman123678 New Member

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    that is very good point me personally i would like to live in a society where abortion of any kind is not accepted i personally know of a couple who cant have children and abortion is taking advantage of the gift of being able to have children and i think it is a slap in the face of those who cannot have children there are so many other options like adoption so i think abortion is 100% wrong no matter the situation
     
  9. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Taking advantage of the gift of being able to procreate?

    Making babies is biology, and with my "survival of the fittest" cap on, if you can't have babies, there's a reason (either you or your partner), and that reason means the "inferior" genetic code of that coupling won't get passed on to "weaken" the gene pool.

    Of course, I don't believe that human evolution by procreation has really been in effect for a few hundred years now anyway, so it kind of renders it moot.

    Childless couples can adopt, or lead a kick-ass double income no kid lifestyle. If people had to apply for a license to breed and prove not to be a druggie etc that might reduce the 'tard factor, and the number of abortions. But that will never happen, nor would I really want to live in a society where the government had that much control.
     
  10. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    See, people like this? Should not have children. They are too dumb and irresponsible to be a role model for anyone else. The best they can hope is that their stupidity will serve as a cautionary tale to others.

    But I digress......
     
  11. Pan.Durr

    Pan.Durr AKA Keanu

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    To me, it's not anyone else's choice whether a woman should have an abortion or not. You shouldn't say abortions should be made illegal or whatever coz it's not your place to say!

    Seriously, if a woman doesn't want to bring the child that she is pregnant with into the world for whatever reason, then she shouldn't be forced to. Imagine the resent she might show towards that child as it grows.

    Ask yourself how it would feel to be the child of a woman who doesn't want you before you make a judgement call on abortion.
     
  12. clouded_perception

    clouded_perception clouded_perception

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    I'll give you the first situation if the mother's health is in jeopardy (your eugenics point is... not the stance I would take and although foster care is never the ideal situation it would be a reasonable compromise in that situation), but in the second, the woman should certainly not be forced to abort. She may face raising a child alone, but it's still her choice -- raise the child alone, let somebody else take care of it, or abort.

    Firstly, the genes that are being screened out by infertility are the ones that cause infertility, so if the carriers could have children, they wouldn't be "inferior" genes. The reason is circular.

    Secondly, human genetics are not random and influence procreation rates; therefore evolution is in effect. The trouble is that the selection pressures aren't very static at the moment; human society changes so quickly nowadays that it's just about impossible to predict anything beyond a couple of generations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2009
  13. clouded_perception

    clouded_perception clouded_perception

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    I agree wholeheartedly, but I can understand where some anti-abortionists who try to impose their views are coming from. After all, we impose the cultural standard of "don't murder people" on others all the time, and apply penalties if they disobey. I'm trying to impose my value of "imprisoning and torturing peaceful protesters to death is bad" on certain governments, as are entire communities of people. Since many anti-abortionists see a zygote as a human being, their stance makes sense from their perspective; they're defending something very important. With that rationale, stopping somebody from having an abortion is like stopping somebody from smothering their partner or child in their sleep.

    Unfortunately this makes compromise extremely difficult, because from our "it's just a clump of cells until a certain level of development" mentality, illegalising abortion causes a lot of harm, and the two viewpoints are irreconsilable.
     
  14. Fiel

    Fiel Guardian of Time

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    I pick 3# Yes if only the situation threatens the mother and/or child

    I think it's murder to just abort it without valid, strong reason.
    But then again, if the child is not yet alive, then abortion is acceptable.
     
  15. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    I have completely changed my views on this topic.

    Previously my views were very conservative and were based purely on emotion. However ive come to realise that my emotions cannot and should not effect or demean anyone's choices in the matter.

    I believe that Abortion is something that should be allowed regardless of the reason. I also believe that abortion procedures should be allowed to be carried out only when the embryo or fetus cannot live outside the mothers womb. This i believe is approximately in the 24th week or just before the third trimester. If an abortion does not take place before the 24th week the mother has an obligation to continue the pregnancy purely because the fetus will or has a high chance of survival.

    Some people may say that it is morally wrong. That view however, is very dangerous because it imposes ones moral belief upon another.
    If the fetus cannot live on its own it is essentially parasitic in nature. Those who say that there is a possibility of life are completely right, the decision however relies solely upon the host.

    I feel so much more grown up now! ;)
     
  16. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    I realised this young, but the older I get the more it gets reinforced - the world is very rarely black and white. It's usually a sliding scale of grey. I would consider very few situations 100% black or white.
     
  17. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

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    And aborting a person isn't?

    Humans are pretty much parasites for the first two years of their lives, arguably longer.
     
  18. Trueface

    Trueface New Member

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    A fetus is not a person, and the major developments of nervous system and sensory imput occur at approximately twenty-seven weeks of development. Most abortions occur within merely the first twelve weeks - eighty-eight percent approximately, in America. From my perspective, the abortion becomes more questionable as the development allows for more human features. An early abortion is safer, and less morally trying.

    I haven't posted in this thread before, so I suppose I must outline my view. I firmly believe in a woman's right to choose. First and foremost because it is her body; her genes, and her life which may dramatically change. The father also should have considerable imput in the decision, although perhaps unavoidably, if there were disagreement, the final word would likely rest with the mother. As far as I am concerened, terminating an early fetus is merely the prevention of potential life; worse obviously, but not much more so than contraception. Abortion should always be an option should contraception fail, or other less than desireable situations - such as rape - occur. Further than that however, allowing abortion simply allows for greatest personal choice.
    The term 'parasitic' can actually be applied literaly to a fetus, however. Indeed, if the right circumstances occur, a fetus can develop into a fully fledged parasite. A fetus can become permanently parasitic in nature. This is an important distinction, really. It illustrates that a fetus is merely a potential of human life; that is the extent of the definition.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2009
  19. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

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    I disagree, and your post regarding sensory awareness and brain activity of what constitutes a person would make patients in a coma and the blind/deaf folk rather inhuman, wouldn't it? You would argue no, by giving out various stipulations on what else constitutes a person, and I would point out the hypocritical thinking and flaws found the response. You would reciprocate in kind, and the snow ball starts rolling. Unfortunately, this is just a fundamental difference between lifers and choicers. No amount of analogy jockeying and introspective targeting questions can really change this. I've just been through a thirty round debate on another forum and no ground was gained on either side. The rest of your paragraph is irrelevant.
    So what? My point was that it being a parasite does not matter. Just like being an animal does not matter. This is just a poor attempt at belittling something to divert moral questioning.


    EDIT: I see you're setting up a very long post (I've been waiting for your response for about five minutes, I see you're typing it), so I will respond tomorrow at a similar time, if I remember.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  20. Trueface

    Trueface New Member

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    For clarity, I was attesting, correctly, that a fetus is clinically not a person. As such a fetus early in development doesnt react to anything but the most basic of stimuli, and shares virtually none of the cognitive fuction that defines a human. All it has is potential; this is a clinical fact. Perhaps you place a high inherent value on human genetic material? Naturally, that raises a new set of issues.
    Assuming you could find them, yet there is only one way to discover so. If you could discover actual flaws within my reasoning, then I would accept that; It would be a positive outcome. Furthermore, the very fact that this issue is endlessly grey justifies the allowance of choice. For an issue with so many moral facets, and indeed potential exceptions.
    I consider this a double standard, but no matter. The fact that a fetus can develop into a fully fledged parasite illustrates that it is the potential for human life, not human life itself, as you asserted. That was the crux of my point. If you are sure that our continued discussion would foster only dissagreement, then we can leave the debate here. However, I am interested in what your entire outlook on Abortion is, in summary.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
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