Abortion

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Sarah, Oct 21, 2003.

?

Is abortion a justified act?

  1. Yes

    44 vote(s)
    53.7%
  2. No

    12 vote(s)
    14.6%
  3. Yes if only the situation threatens the mother and/or child

    26 vote(s)
    31.7%
  1. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    And how far would you take that? Banning contraception? Masturbation?

    Threatening the life of the mother? Justified.
    Rape/abuse? Justified.
    Mother under 18? Justified.
    Contraception failed? Justified. Just not bothering is not a valid reason, it should never be a primary method of contraception and it should be done asap.
     
  2. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    Having an abortion when the 'baby' is still only a bunch of cells is not killing a life. It's not even conscious yet. I myself would not loose any sleep if I had an abortion for reasons that I can't foresee, but if I felt it was necessary then that would be it and I would not feel guilty about it. If you force a woman to have a child she does not want, not only will she suffer from it but so will the child. A child should only be brought into the world if it is within a loving environment. With many women they do not have the option to have an abortion and end up giving their children away. Yes many will be adopted and so forth but what of the ones who don't? And even the children who are adopted, they will always know that they had been cast aside. I've known many people who were adopted. One of them was a girl I knew from school, and it always plagued her about it, because she and her brother were given up and went to a violent couple. So she could not even find the comfort with a new set of parents. She was mistreated by her adopted parents and felt her biological ones didn't want her either. She was pretty screwed up, I felt so sorry for her.

    There's more to consider with having an abortion than just 'killing a life'.... You have to define what 'life' is. Cause in that case why do we chop down trees, stand on the grass etc All living things. Why do some countries execute people, if murder is wrong? Because some murder is seen as right, and some wrong, which is just hypocritical.
     
  3. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    of course i wouldnt go that far!!! lol

    but mother under 18??? completely unjustified in my opinion!
     
  4. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    She's a minor and while she's legally entitled to bring up a child she's not yet an adult and should not be forced to spend the rest of her life held back by what was probably a mistake.
     
  5. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    yeah... i say live with it!!!

    if your old enough to make a conscious decision about engaging in sexual intercourse, you know full well the risks and implications, then... in my view you are old enough to deal with it!

    to have abortion readily available to these people, is completely wrong
     
  6. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    ***HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION***

    So if I, happily married at 28 years of age, my husband working, I recently laid off due to my company outsourcing a department to another country and barely scraping by, obviously understanding the full implications of sex and it's circumstances, have sex with my husband, and find out a few weeks later that I'm pregnant, with no job prospects due to the economy and us just barely making ends meet --- you're telling me I have to manage to find hundreds of dollars for all of the doctors appointments and tests, spend hundreds of dollars on nursery items and clothing, all for a baby I didn't plan on, being on birth control (remember, no such thing as 100% effective), and I have no forseeable way to raise this baby, that I've now spent thousands of dollars on, and can't afford to give a quality life to.

    So you're saying that the baby I'm now pregnant with, even though I was on the pill, I have to spend all these thousands of dollars to carry to term and have, to give it away to an orphanage, because we can barely make rent? That's seriously what you're saying to me?


    The above situation was purely hypothetical. I'm 28, my husband and I both work ( I recently got a new job because my company outsourced my department), but I'm not, never have been, and it's pretty unlikely that I will be pregnant. But this is a challenge that people face daily, and I want to hear what you would do if you were in this predicament.
     
  7. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    How about the morning after pill? Chemical (ie. non-surgical abortions) can be done for the first few months, they're common practice in China where it's mandatory if you already have a child.
     
  8. I. R. Shogun

    I. R. Shogun Midnight Demon

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    Yeah let's have the child and mother both have to live through a low fund existence and be exponentially more likely to become impoverished and possibly get involved with drugs and other criminal activities just to teach the mother a lesson. That's a logical and reasonable ay to go about it.
     
  9. Ender-Zero

    Ender-Zero Ruff Mercenary

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    If the kid is going to grow up in an environment that it should not, then abortion is acceptable. If it would be a drug child, or in an unstabee environment abortion may even be a mercy of sorts, trust me, I know what an unstable environment is like and sometimes death seemed preferable.
     
  10. AcrobaticHippo

    AcrobaticHippo Determined

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    *Double post - see next post*
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2007
  11. AcrobaticHippo

    AcrobaticHippo Determined

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    Re: Abortion: Justified act?

    Sorry for bumping this thread, but I just felt like responding to this one because it was pretty interesting (at least to me...)

    This is a TRUE story : My father was in a situation very much like the hypothetical one you described a long time ago, when my mum was pregnant with me (and I wasn't planned for, by the way). My family had a total of $4.50 with them at one point, my pregnant mother had to stay home to take care of my toddler brother, my dad had a pretty low-paying job, both my parents had (and still have) health problems and they were facing a hell lot of family problems with most of our relatives.

    Could they have taken the easy way out? Yeah, they could have, but they didn't. My father left my mum at home and slaved away at his job 24/7 while taking loans and courses to improve himself. Sure, I never saw much of my dad (and later my mum) when I was growing up, but all their hard work paid off and we're now your stable, average middle-class family with good money in the bank and enough for our basic needs plus a little luxury. I suppose if I posed this question to them right now (they're out XD), they'd say that they feel really happy that they didn't sacrifice their children for circumstances that could possibly change.
    For working people, the economy isn't an excuse. For your hypothetical situation, your skills could be in demand in the future. My dad had those eternally low-paying kind of skills, but he decided to work his butt off anyway.

    Now if *touches wood* a relative were to get in a serious accident and depend on medicine to survive, does that mean his/her kin can kill him/her off? Because, ya know :

    -A seriously wounded child/adult family member (who can survive with proper care) dependent on medicine to survive can be compared to a foetus dependent on the mother's placenta to survive.

    -A seriously wounded child/adult who had one or more limbs lost because of unfavourable circumstances (but who can survive with proper care) can be compared to an undeveloped, hapless foetus (who has human DNA and structures >_>) and they're therefore "not human".

    -A seriously wounded child (who can survive with proper care) under the care of living parents can be killed off because it's the "mother's choice" since the child lives in her home and is under her control, because if they can't be killed off and foetuses can because they're under her control as well, the law is contradicting itself.

    -A drug addict should be able to inject drugs into his/her body because its "his/her choice" and if mothers can abort their foetuses based on choice and drug addicts can't, the law is contradicting itself.


    I used these analogies to show the value of each and every family member. I'm not saying that abortion can NEVER be used, but it should be use IF and ONLY IF there is no way to preserve both mother and child at the same time. People in developed countries have public assistance, charities and stable relatives to help out. Abortion is fine only when the birth of a child causes the death of both the child and mother and only if the child is born to a mother living in a country with majorly screwed/no welfare system and NO opportunities whatsoever. Pregnancy through rape could be terminated if the mother wishes so...I suppose there'd be unfair pain and anguish caused, and it'd hold the lady accountable for the rape and that ain't right...
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2007
  12. mz-readaholic

    mz-readaholic Use The Force

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    My opinion of abortion is that in SOME situations it is understandable and therefore acceptable. I do not think it is right for a woman to have an abortion if she willingly had sex with someone, knowing that she was risking getting pregnant. However, if a woman was raped I would understand her not wanting to keep the baby, and would accept her right to have an abortion.
     
  13. clouded_perception

    clouded_perception clouded_perception

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    An embryo without brain tissue is not a human, any more than a cell scraping from the inside of your cheek is a human.

    To speak of the potential an embryo has to become human is irrelevant. Many of my ova have the potential to become human, yet I take deliberate steps not to let them -- is this murder? Is male masturbation, or indeed the failure for a male to have as much sex as possible and give his sperm the best chance to become human, murder?

    The mind cannot be confused with the body. An amputee is not less human than anyone else. A braindead person is dead whether or not their body cells can be kept alive. If it has a mind, there's an issue -- anything without brain tissue shouldn't even be considered.

    For the abortion of embryos, the relevant issues are the mental and physical health of the mother, and the mental health of the father. everything else is a distraction. A bunch of foreign cells in a woman's uterus don't constitute life any more sacred than the skin cells you shed every day.
     
  14. Anduril

    Anduril Flame of the West

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    You say that an embryo without brain tissue is not human. You are retrojecting what you know of humans around you back onto a fetus which is what a person looks like at that stage/various stages. How do you know it is not human?

    If a person loses brain functions, is that person still a human?

    Sorry, but any of your ova are not going to become a human. They have to join with a sperm to become a different entity in order to become a human.

    You came from a sperm and an ovum. You once were a teenager in the same way you once were a baby and once were a fetus. We trace people back to conception. If you try to go back farther, then you are forced to decide "Was the person split in two with one half being egg and one half being sperm?"
     
  15. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    I think abortion is the right of any woman, and the last people who should say it's not allowed is men. It is up to the woman who it effects, people tend to put a few cells as being more important than an actual living, breathing human being that is pregnant. Destroying a cluster of cells seems to be taken as worse than a woman being forced to carry a child she does not want, and the mental anguish that goes along with that. Regardless of her situation.

    I don't agree in abortions at the 6 months stage cause that is pushing it, but up to 3-4 months, no problem. Most women know by that stage where they stand on the issue, and women who wait six months? Ridiculous. But earlier than that, then there is nothing wrong with it. It's the woman's choice, that's the beginning, middle and end of it.
     
  16. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    Well an embryo without brain tissue can be compared maybe to human with no brain, so practically he's the same as someone who is brain dead, so he's in theory dead... He's just an organism... An entity of no conciousness, no suffering.
     
  17. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    I would like to pose a question. What rights do you think the father should have? Is it solely the woman's choice? After all, we so often hear the 'It takes two to tango' line and fathers are forced to support their children, whatever the circumstances.

    Obviously the burden of pregnancy falls on the woman but how would you treat the situation where there is a difference of opinion? If the father wants it but the mother doesn't, should he have any rights there? Could he get an injunction to prevent the termination of his child? How about if she wants it but he doesn't? Should he be forced to pay for it for the next eighteen years?

    I'm fairly sure what most people think about those situations but doesn't that involve a huge double standard?
     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Rav, you are my man. I get pretty pissed when I hear the old "I'm gonna keep it - and you're gonna take care of it". Men are slightly less then just as much involved...

    I wouldn't agree at all. I have seen so many pregnancies of women who didn't even know that they were pregnant until the last trimester or something like that. We shouldn't exclude these people on beforehand. But my stance is; "lol - too late, we have to draw a line somewhere".

    Soooo... when does a human ascend being "just an organism"? And what is the criterium you set yourself. I mean, it's well known that all vertebrate animals have a very similar embrionic development. But the last non-human organism we overtake would be about 18 months after our birth. Besides, the all-defining self-consciousness only starts around the age of 2? Not sure anymore when that kicked in; but it's pretty late alltogether. Still, we recognise a child at birth as being a human being; despite it doesn't quite operate that way then. And no one would dream of approving that kind of infanticide; in stead, we invest in its future and most babies will indeed grow up to be a proper Homo Sapiens. So maybe, then, we have to consider the future from an earlier stage as well; and recognise the potential of embryos?
     
  19. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    Babies at least have some conciousness, they are aware of pain and can suffer even before birth to a certain level. But just as embryo's with no brain tissue, they'll suffer as much as someone who is brain dead.
     
  20. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    I'm talking about law makers, men should not be deciding because they don't have to experience it personally, somehow I think if they did it would be different. It's all about control and I don't like that. Of course a father should have a say, but even still, it's the woman who has to go through with it so she should be the one to make the final decision. You wouldn't force your girlfriend/ wife to have a child she didn't want would you? Not fair on her and ultimately not fair on the child.


    Concerning consciousness, I believe I saw in a documentary something along the lines of 5-6 months where the foetus can hear and such, but consciousness? I'm not sure about that. Concerning brain development in the womb I would say about 6 months but the level of consciousness would be of course very small but I think there would be a level. Hence why I do not like the idea of abortions at that stage. But would I ban abortion at that stage? Well I don't know, I don't think so. Would I have an abortion at that stage? No, I couldn't. If, as was said, that I somehow didn't know I was and found out at that stage and had the choice, I still would go through with it, but that is my choice. I would not inflict my own standards on another woman, it's not right to do that. For me I wouldn't hesitate to have an abortion if I felt the timing wasn't right or what not, but after 3 months I would become uncomfortable with the idea. However again, that's me personally. Can't speak for others.
     
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