A question for Americans

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Jan 14, 2011.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I wanted to ask you guys something out of curiosity and to see your reactions on some questions and political stuff.

    So first of all my friends I want to ask you:

    What if an American state wanted to become independent?I don't know why,let's just say for some reasons the people living there want out of the country and want to become their own state.Let's say for example...California or Georgia or Florida or Virginia.Let's say they just wake up one day and declare themselves and independent State.The country of Virginia let's say.What will happen?Will the Army move in and take back this state?Is that legal?
    Can someone tell me if it's allowed for a State of the United States of America to leave the country?

    And second:

    If an ethnic population in a U.S. county or State consists the majority of the population and they want for their own reasons to declare themselves independent or acctually declare themselves independent or want to unite with...let's say Mexico...or Cuba...or Canada...for example.What do you think should be done on that matter?Would that be wrong,evil,illegal or ok?
     
  2. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

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    First question: Every other state laughs at them. They laugh at themselves.

    To be quite honest, only Alaska would be capable of seriously trying to leave the USA. Every other state has family in every other state with people emigrating to and from everywhere it's ridiculous. I have family in nine other states. Everybody does. The idea is inconceivable, especially as there isn't the socio-economic problems that divided up the country as it did during the Civil War between the North and the South. Well, actually, California does have a bigass economy (8th largest in the world), but they have so many people moving in and out of it, combined with tourist, it just wouldn't happen any time soon.

    No, they wouldn't be allowed to leave. They might be called "states" but they're not sovereign. This isn't like our old constitution, the Articles of Confederation. I would bet the Army would move in and take it back with the citizens of the state welcoming them in.

    Second question: We already have a tiny Mexican-American group called the "Reconquista" that wants Southwest United States, which does have a huge Hispanic population, to break off and form a Hispanic nation separate form the US and Mexico, or go back to Mexico. I find both ideas repulsive because, 1. I live in the SW USA, and 2. Mexico is a ****ing dump.

    We also have several well-trained hardcore Christian militias that are planning for a day to overthrow the US. I didn't get a chance to read more about them but they're an interesting crazy group.

    Alliance with Canada would be interesting, because it would cause less shit than the other two "revolutions". Contemporary democrats/leftist have views that are similar with the Canadian centrist, and a lot of states have policy laws similar to Canada. I still don't see it happening. I still don't see it happening, as even states that are largely democratic and leftist have strong republican holdings, and vice versa.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    And here's the question:

    If all that is unconstitutional and the army would try to reclaim the separatist States,which would automatically be hailed as something good and just,then WHY did the US and the rest of the Western "free and democratic world" condemn and accuse Yugoslavia and mainly the Serbs for trying to get Croatia and Bosnia back in the Federation while it was unconstitutional for a republic to leave the federation and most of all,when it comes to the second question
    why did they RECOGNIZE and support the Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence in Kosovo and still support one way or another the seperation of Kosovo from Serbia?

    That's what I don't understand.The hypocrisy of the U.S. when it comes to foreign politics.

    What if let's say Texas or California declared themselves independent,would that be unjust or evil too?
     
  4. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Forget all the bs about fighting for democracy and righteousness. If there's anything that history has taught us, it will be every man for himself. -.-'
     
  5. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    I'm not american but a european who spent only 1 year there. My guess would be.

    1. Not gonna work. Because this "one nation under God" is not only a poetic verse but seen kinda like a holy command ;) ONE nation, not two and especially not three.
    Well we saw in the civil war what happens if someone ignores that biblical commandment. :p

    2. Nuh-uh as well. "one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice FOR ALL"
    That as well is a commandment. Noone has the right to want to be independent, because THERE IS (no matter what you see or hear, it's in the constitution that THERE IS) liberty and justice FOR ALL. So there's no reason to want to be independent. Right? Right?
    America is the shepherd who keeps all his sheep in line. ALL the sheep. IN LINE. :p

    Then again, I as a european don't think any of the states would wanna seperate itself from the US. Economically it would be a desaster I guess.
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I KNOW it would be a disaster but the whole question of this thread is about what they did to specifically Yugoslavia and Kosovo(taking away Kosovo from Serbia and giving it to the Albanians)and their meddling to other parts of the world while they would act TOTALLY the opposite if something similar happened to their country,to their federate country.

    Would they trample down the values of freedom and justice if a State suddenly wanted to become independent?Because they bombed the entire Serbia to stop the Serbs from defeating a separatist Albanian terrorist army and after they forced a kind of "peace" in the Kosovo province,having of course the Albanians burn churches and kill people from all other ethnicities in the area,they recognized Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence and give them all the political help they can.

    The same thing they were politically condemning the Russians for when they were fighting to keep Chechnya in their country.

    Would it be then,unjust and evil if the Mexicans gathered in one State and declared it independent?If the Americans sent it the army or militias or did not recognize the independence of that State,wouldn't that mean that all their foreign policy and freedom rhetorics were just bullocks?
     
  7. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    I'm not that much into the Kosovo conflict. I was too young when it happened to follow the news back then.

    But America surely would use force to keep a state rather than lose it.
    Simply because then it would affect their strength. Russia is/was a communist country, sure enough the US were in favor of anything that lessened their power.
    Maybe the same thing played a role in Kosovo?

    And I'm quoting an american exchange student here: "Why do we always have to be the world police?"
    There seems to be some myth that America defends some ultimate Good, some ultimate Law.
    Maybe that helped answering your question, the "unjusticeness" remains.
    But who ever said powerful nations were just? They can do stuff simply because the CAN

    And so as the US slowly go down now and China rises I really wish it would be different.
     
  8. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    The US would never let a state separate from the main whole because if that state were seen to benefit from the separation it send shockwaves through the US system. Other states might want to look for separation or more autonomy from the White House and that directly weakens the ruling parties powers.

    Thus they would oppose such a move unless they could both use the media to ensure that the state being removed is like a cancer to the rest of the US and also ensure that after separation the state does not benefit from leaving the US.

    As for their "world police" status its more like "world busybody/bully" status ;)
     
  9. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Alaska & Hawaii only became US states in the 1950s so if the US constitution is flexible enough to add states I suspect that in the very unlikely event of a state having overwhelming support to break away it may be technically possible but on what terms? A totally landlocked state not bordering Canada would have no way to function independently if borders/airspace were closed but a coastal state could.

    Yugoslavia was a construct of the 20th century and fell apart as a result of divisions of it's ethnic groupings. I don't think the same internal stresses are evident within the US. There's more chance of the UK dividing than the US :)







    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2011
  10. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    It sort of sounds like you're asking what would happen if a second Civil War broke out in the United States. The South wanted to become independent; as history proves, steps were taken to ensure that the secession was not successful. I'd assume that in modern times, if a state attempted to break away from the US, similar things would happen.
     
  11. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

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    It's not the same. Albanians had unilateral support, yes? That would never happen in the US, as everybody migrates from state to state. It will only be a minority.

    Realpolitik.


    That's probably the dumbest thing I've eve heard. :D

    Think of an EU member splitting from the EU. Now think a thousand times worse.
    Do we want China to be the world police? :p
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Now that I think about it,during the Kosovo war,the Albanians were attacking and terrorizing Serbs thus provoking them to strike back and use propaganda every time there were reprisals from the Serbian side.The U.S. used that to present the Serbs as the evil aggressors who were performing an "ethnic cleansing" and thus attack the Serbs and support the Albanians.No matter if they bombed Albanians too when they were trying to "protect them" from the Yugoslav army.

    So I guess if...let's say Mexicans or Cubans or whoever,started to kick out an ethnic group or a specific group from a recently declared independent State,the rest of the U.S. would call it an act of aggression and immidiately send the army to "liberate" the State or prevent the "ethnic cleansing" of the State's people even if that DIDN'T actually happen.

    Running Wolf that was a nice post by the way!

    And...maybe a country that could leave the European Union could actually save itself :p
     
  13. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    ffs the whole concept of world police isn't just abt bullying. Above all, it's forcing things down other countries' throats for the sake of the relevant gains. This is also why the whole world police bs has been pretty much selective in terms of which countries to target. Remember who was that idiotic country that backed the Tunisian government before it crashed recently? Yep it's Mr Uncle Sam aka Big US of A. -.-
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Funny how they wanted to "liberate" Iraq from the tyrant Saddam(he was a tyrant and we all know it)but they do nothing to liberate Myanmar from the military junta that has been oppressing the people for years.Oh wait I forgot.........there's no oil in Myanmar.
    Well I guess peace and justice is something that equals to oil and money.
     
  15. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    I was trying to think american style :p ;) :rolleyes:

    With the EU it's something totally different. You can't compare it with the US but rather with the NATO. A) There would be no hard feelings in the different societies if one country left, because emotionally the EU is not that well established
    B) The states in the EU were and still are independant nations, with different languages and different systems and different histories.
    (Example: Assume France would leave the Union. Germans certainly wouldn't mind. The economy would indeed, but the german folks wouldn't. :D (I'm not saying France should leave the Union. Please don't!))

    And as for China: That's what I'm saying: Don't let China be the world police, I'd rather keep on dealing with the US 'saving' the world :p


    Thanks :D
    And... I don't think so. Some guy calculated it through for Germany and even though we have a pretty good economy, it would be a catastrophe if we left the Union. So I guess we'll all stay in the same boat. Sorry to say that, my brother down there in that ancient country of warmth and myth. ;)
     
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Yes but some people still want to use the Deutsche Mark in Germany,right? I think we're not going so well with the Euro thing...
     
  17. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Noone wants to use the Deutsche Mark.
    Most of us are pretty content with the Euro. Sorry to disappoint there.

    Edit: Oh, old people with Alzheimers want to use DM, but then, when the disease continues, the also think they should use Reichsmark, so I don't think they're up to date.
    It's funny how I learned to calculate with DM in school and how my younger sister doesn't even know what that kind of money looks like :D
     
  18. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I still remember when I was a kid that the Deutsche Mark was very powerful.Going side by side with the American dollar.

    But anyway let's get back on topic...how can the American constitution not allow a State or an area of their country to become independent if they want too and from the other hand support and recognize the "right" of other nations or people to just declare themselves independent and leave a country or a federation.
     
  19. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

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    Invade myanmar: get nothing.

    Invade Iraq: destabilize the middle-east, put bases in the middle of the middle-east, get oil rigs, destroy enemy.

    Obviously invading Iraq is the better option. ;) Though I think it was stupid. It would have never happened in 9/11 didn't happen though. And ****, we need to limit the President's military power outside of wartime some more. This is ridiculous.

    Practice more after you finish killing your quota of Jews and sober up from your beerfest, then you might get it. ;) :rolleyes:

    I wasn't referring to the whole "hard-feelings" bit. I was referring to how bad their economy would crash (see the part I quoted).

    Screw that. Let the EU be the "good guys" for once FFS. Slightly stronger economy, bigger population, ****ing nicer and better human rights that's for sure! Let their economy spend the trillions on chaos while we pay off our debt and vote the liberals into office for **** sake. :D

    Seriously this whole Iraq shitstorm better not be repeated in my lifetime or I'm going to riot.

    Because we don't want them to, that's why. ;)

    A more serious analogy would be what happens if Athens decided to split off from your country?

    The only power the States really have right now is the power to make their own laws. A pretty good thing, IMO, because the culture mores are going to be different from region to region. Letting the locals decide how they want to run things, within the guidelines of the federal government, makes plenty of sense. Smaller countries don't have to worry about that, I think, but large area countries like the US and Canada (I think they have a similar system) need it or there's going to be a lot of unhappiness.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2011
  20. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    That's a touchy subject.
    >.>
    The beerfest I mean :p

    We don't wanna spend trillions on chaos. We're all for a better world, the problem is that the population doesn't agree with this "bombs for peace" attitude. And every politician who wanted to send our 'army' to... say Sudan to make peace down there would be beheaded - mentaphorically speaking.
    The EU is in no position to lead or be the strong "good guys". Our wealthy and 'used-to peace'- butts have become lazy. We wanna have peace everywhere but are not willing to let our guys die for it. The european attitude of criticising everything only works because the big problems are 'solved' or taken care of by others. If we were at war I'm not sure how long that 'Union' would hold up.
    Europe had its share of war - mostly within itself. We don't want that anymore. Think of the EU as the Retirement Union :p
    (This is all only speaking for me and the 'wealthier' european countries.)
     
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