A failing franchise

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by Anakin, May 21, 2018.

  1. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    You win a cookie. A wookiee cookie!
     
  2. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter Loitering from 2009 - 2018

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    Always wanted one. Cheers.

    Since we're in a SW thread: I never remembered what happened to Jar-Jar. I've only ever watched the movies once, and that was on release, so TPM was back in the days of VHS. I just kinda assumed that he was loitering around somewhere, until I saw this clip today. Is it real?

     
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  3. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    lol the ending ain't, but yes that was a deleted scene. I could be wrong but it might've been that Jar Jar originally swam up the waterfall? Anakin will know. I'll get him.
     
  4. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    In Disney's canon, most blame him for how he was part of the creation of the Empire. He asked the Senate to give emergency powers to Palpatine in Attack of the Clones and that led to Palps becoming Emperor eventually. He's loved by the children as a clown but the parents hate him. He's just performing tricks and living on the streets on Naboo. He meets an orphan boy, heavily burned because of a bombardment by the Empire and he becomes friends of the boy. They feel related to each other because they're both outcasts. The boy asks him to teach him to become a clown and Jar-Jar accepts his request and his friendship.

    Here's the real scene. If you go to about 2:20 you'll see the real ending.

     
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  5. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus King Anakin's Royal Advisor, Constantly Around :D

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    where can I read this fascinating sequel story?:eek:
     
  6. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    It's actually part of a trilogy called 'Star Wars: Aftermath Empire's End'.
     
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  7. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus King Anakin's Royal Advisor, Constantly Around :D

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    I'll look it up, thanks!
     
  8. Heaven's Cloud

    Heaven's Cloud Well-Known Member

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    I'm so missing Jar jar right now, and I'm not even joking in the slightest. Damn you, Disney!:mad:
     
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  9. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    I personally never understood the Jar Jar hate. I never really thought anything of him at all. He was clearly there for kids, and at 15 I understood that. Jar Jar was no where near as annoying as the man-children moaning about him. I can actually remember a friend of mine nearly pissing herself laughing at Jar Jar's antics when we saw the film together, which she loved, and then cut to a year and a half later and suddenly she thinks the film, and Jar Jar, are stupid. It had nothing to do with her opinion, she was a chameleon. She saw/heard others criticizing the film, and Jar Jar, and started to behave accordingly. But she clearly forgot I was sat next to her the day we saw it. So myeah, I don't really buy all this hate shit. And it's interesting to see since Disney has taken over how much people are looking back at the Prequels and starting to appreciate them.
     
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  10. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I think Jar Jar is silly and its shame because his character and position in the story could have been made ever so much stronger and yet still had some humour.

    I'd always seen his ideal position as being heavily political. A politician exiled and thus ideally suited toward advising, relations between species and joining the council; but utterly hopeless in battle, surviving in the wild and all those other areas. It would have given him room to be an idiot without being a fool and room to mature into his role in the senate as a representative of his people and being strong in that position without having to have a near total character and personality change (which isn't impossible to imagine, many people do change, but we never see him change in the films).


    But yes "man child" rage (and not all are men) is kind of nuts. Games Workshop has this right now as they've announced some teenage/young adult comic style stories for kids in their 40K setting; a load of adults raged online about how they can't present the "grim dark future without gore" and how "its sanitising the franchise" and all that stuff Even though not a month or so before that announcement we got a faction that was basically all swords and (covered) boobies* who sacrifice the hearts of their enemies to vast pools of blood to drive their magic and empower their god.




    *Yes for the purpose of this post I'm being intentionally crude in describing the Daughters of Khaine faction.
     
  11. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    People say that Rogue One solved a plothole in the first Star Wars film, which personally I find to be rubbish. The irony is that it left in an actual plothole, or at least an error in Star Wars. You could argue that it's for continuity reasons. George probably didn't think it was that important either tbh, since he never fixed it in any of the special editions. You see in the film the Death Star plans show that the Ion cannon is installed in the centre of the Death Star, while it's Ion Cannon is actually above the middle, where all the shuttle bays are and such. They left that error in Rogue One.
     
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  12. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    Indeed, it created a plot hole. The conversation between Vader and Leia is now nonsensical. "You weren't on any mercy mission this time." No, he should've been saying "I just fucking saw you, love! Like, 15 minutes ago! Don't give me this shit! Take her away!"

    Also Vader kicking ass in Rogue One, while cool, makes little sense now when we see the fight between him and Kenobi. Which, let's face it, was the lightsaber equivalent of 'you're it!...... no, you're it..... you're it!.... quit it, I said you're it!.... Well now you're it'. It's pitiful. But it made sense, originally, because Kenobi is, as Han would say, an old fossil who's not quite as tuned as he used to be, and Vader is more machine than man. However he was kicking some serious ass in Rogue One, Kenobi would've been mincemeat in a second if THAT Vader had shown up. So my only conclusion is that poor Vader slipped a disc during all that showing off so he can barely do anything other than strut angrily or play old man lightsaber tag.
     
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  13. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Honestly I see the Vader fight a bit like most of the combat between the old and new films - the new films they had CGI and a lot more resources and experience in hollywood with making cool fights; in the original films they were basically still using fencing methods and the limits of costumes meant that all the acrobatics were right out.

    Heck just look at the difference in droids - C3P0 is like a slug compared to many mechs that appear in the Phantom Menace. It's a problem you get when you make a sequel to a film made in another age and don't keep a continuity of technology in the mechanics of the film itself.
     
  14. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    Nah they were not being that cerebral. Even with the Threepio example, he was constructed from junk, though we do see another like him in The Phantom Menace on the Trade Federation ship, so there are others like him in the Prequels.

    And the fight with Vader, they just wanted to be badass, they didn't care about continuity whatsoever. Whereas Lucas was very careful in that area. An example being Yoda. He made sure that despite all his grand fighting in the Prequels, we never see him lift anything like the X-Wing. He lifts a pipe and a senate pod, but nothing like an entire starship. Lucas did this intentionally so that if people watched chronologically, that moment is still impressive in Empire.

    Same, we never see a cockpit shot of ships zooming into Hyperspace in the prequels. Again, this was deliberate. Because of course the Prequels were all shiny and new. as was meant to be the point showing the Old republic and the Jedi in their heyday, so he left the Hyperspace zoom specifically for the originals so that they had something unique to themselves.

    I could go on and on but Lucas was meticulous about these things. The new films, however, have thrown all that to the wind. They don't care.
     
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  15. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    I'd like to add that on top of stupidities in Rogue One.

    Vader: "Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you."

    Leia: "Actually they were slipped through the door you came through, but... Aw shit..."

    @Overread: Actually the fighting differs because in the republic era, the Jedi were at their prime. These were true Jedi taught in martial arts. While Vader, Luke and Obi-Wan. Well Vader was stuck in an outfit that was rather firm and prevented him to fight as dynamic as he did when he was still Anakin in his younger years. Luke is a novice, learning from old mentors who aren't in their prime anymore. So it makes perfect sense. Though of course with a potential Obi-Wan film this could be thrown out the window as well. Him kicking ass like Vader did in Rogue One, cause continuity? Who cares, right? lol
     
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  16. Heaven's Cloud

    Heaven's Cloud Well-Known Member

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    I'm the opposite if your friend. Before the prequels came out, I was a SW purest. I had my expectations, and I wanted them to be exactly how I expected them. So I wasn't in love with Jar Jar at all, but I still didn't hate Episode 1. After Episode 2 I was sold on the prequels. There's something about that movie that, my brother and I agree, is masterful. And Jar Jar wasn't bad in it. So eventually I started to laugh at his antics as well. A few are a bit too over the top, but he doesn't bother me anymore.

    What bothers me? Disney turning Luke Skywalker into creepy uncle sociopath, who would contemplate murdering in cold blood, a kid in his sleep, who had yet to do anything after being willing to risk almost everything to save Darth Vader.
    "It's outrageous ... It's unthinkable." -Sio Bibble

    Or Disney mutilating another nearly 40 year old character by retroactively making Lando have physical relations with a toaster. My rule with Lando is basically if they wouldn't do something like that to Han, it's probably bad idea to do it to Lando.

    There's no good reason for any of this other than to turn characters that Disney can't match into walking caricatures. I can imagine what the current administration of Lucasfilm would do to Frodo, or Legolas, or any classic character you can think of if they got their grubby hands on them. Watching SW is like living in the Twilight Zone now.
     
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  17. Padmé

    Padmé King in the North & King Anakin's Wench

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    The Luke Skywalker they presented in The Last Jedi is not Luke, and what's even worse, Mark Hamill knew it and voiced his concerns but was ignored! As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 people in the world who know Luke and that's Mark and George Lucas. So for them to ignore them is just unbelievably disrespectful and just shows you their attitude towards the entire franchise. They're not 'protecting the legacy' of Star Wars. They're clearing out what they want and pushing forward what they want.

    I still think of Mark's idea for The Force Awakens which would have been vastly superior to what we got. The moment in the forest just after Finn is struck down, Kylo reaches out for the lightsaber, it shakes and flies off into Rey's hand.... which made no damn sense! That and her magically knowing how to do Jedi mind tricks. All of which could've been forgiven if they made it that she had been a Jedi during Luke's time and had forgotten due to the tragedy of the slaughter at the temple... but anyway.... Mark Hamill said when he read the script and got to that part that the lightsaber was shaking he thought, oh what a great entrance for Luke! And he's right! The entire roof would've been blown off the top of the theatre if Luke had arrived then. And it would've been in Luke's character! Just like what happened in Empire, he senses his friends are in danger, and hurries to their aid. However he doesn't arrive in time to save Han, but he faces Han's son, his former apprentice, and helps the new kids. THAT'S Luke Skywalker. That would've been a fantastic moment, and he expressed that at the time, but nope, they wanted the nobody girl to be the Jedi badass....

    I agree with you about Episode 2, I always loved the prequels, and despite what anyone says, they got better with each film. I know some people hate Episode 2 more than 1 but that's just nuts. Actually, my older brother says that's his favourite film, and he has been around for all of the films. I used to be told that I 'didn't get it' because I was born after Jedi was released, and so missed all the hype. But my brother is 11 years older than I am, he was 4 years old when A New Hope came out and remembers going to see it, along with all the other SW films, had all the toys, was even a member of the first SW club that would deliver toys and figures you could not purchase in the shops etc. And yet his favourite film is Attack of the Clones. So myeah, people and their 'you don't get it' bullshit can get stuffed.

    But yeah, sadly the SW quality years are behind us. In 20 years you'll have people going 'remember when SW used to be good?', or kids going 'Pfft, SW sucks', 'yeah but the first films were pretty good!'. Disney is going to milk it dry, and worse, they might even try to reboot the saga at some point....
     
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  18. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    I know we talked of Mark Hamill's idea of him grabbing the lightsaber out of the snow instead of Rey in the Force Awakens, but we just watched a video with Hamill explaining another cool idea that was rejected, That would have been where Leia tries to attempt to telepathically contact Luke through the Force, but fails. She goes herself to the Starkiller base to save Han, but gets captured by two stormtroopers. Suddenly one of the stormtroopers shoots the other down, takes his helmet off, revealing that it was Luke (personally it would have been cool if he said "so uncivilized", referring to Obi-Wan or that he Force pushed the other stormtrooper rather than shooting him). But this is such a good idea because it would have made a greater entrance for Luke than we saw in TFA. It's also misdirection and an homage to ANH where Luke and Han disguise themselves as stormtroopers. But instead we knew exactly we were going to see Luke and when in the final film and we did.. No surprise there. And I repeat what Padmé said. Luke and Leia rushing to save Han and witnessing his death by Leia's own son would have had so much more emotional resonance. But instead we got to see two new guys witnessing his death and fair enough Chewie. But no this idea also got neglected, because what do actors know who actually know the character better than the director and writer knows.

    Edit: I also want to add this about Rogue One. Jyn Erso tells the rebels about the weakness in the DS. So how did Leia not know there was a weakness in the DS if Jyn told her father. I mean it seems rather illogical that her father wouldn't tell her there was a weakness as she put her own life at risk to get those plans and for what if he didn't tell her? The plans of a battle station with no weakness? No my interpretation of ANH was that Leia wasn't involved in getting those plans. Rebel spies (Jyn and co weren't spies btw. In fact they were deserters) found those plans and transmitted them from wherever they found them from and transmitted them to her ship (yeah, not just handed them over). Vader learned that they were transmitted and intercepted by Leia's ship and tracked down her ship. So Leia was not in harm's way when they were transmitting the plans, so they thought. Because eventually they managed to trace down her ship.
     
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  19. Anakin

    Anakin King of TFF

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    I just want to rant some more, because I was watching a lot of videos and they all said the same thing. Lucasfilm doesn't respect the fandom. Most of the fans are saying we're all for diversity, we're all for strong female characters, we're all for characters of different races. It all started I think with George’s idea about making a female character that follows the heroine’s journey. He knows his mythology and wanted a character that goes through that path, instead of the hero’s journey like with Luke and Anakin. It was an idea I could really get behind. I would have loved to have seen that. But instead they threw his story treatment out of the window and we got Rey, who follows the hero’s journey instead, because Disney wanted to show that they can have a female character who can do everything male characters do.

    We all want equality, but does that mean men and women are the same? Just imply no. So fans are throwing out criticism towards these films because the writers of the stories can’t get their priorities straight. What’s more important? The quality of the story and its characters or diversity? Well according to Kathleen Kennedy, president of Lucasfilm it’s diversity. We’re going to make a new film so the mindset is: ‘we need strong female characters , characters of different races and sexuality. The story? We’ll think of something they might like.’ I’m all for diversity as long as the film’s quality doesn’t suffer from it, otherwise these become just shallow token characters. Then our criticism is completely ignored and they just call the fans mysoginists, racists and such which is completely untrue for most of the fans.
     
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  20. Heaven's Cloud

    Heaven's Cloud Well-Known Member

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    This trilogy lost all value the moment the protagonist (a novice ignorant/not ignorant of her potential) whipped the villain of the trilogy in the first movie. The audience just wasn't aware that Snoke was a complete nobody at the time. Now Kylo Ben is like Dr. Claw, or Skeletor. He's not intimidating at all. He's completely worthless. Training and practice in general is completely worthless. Why should anyone need it?
    God and goddess characters were never a part of SW before. Rey has nothing to develop. She knows everything she needs to know from the beginning, even when she doesn't realize she knows it. That sounds ridiculous, but SW is ridiculous now.
    Mark's ideas were great, but if they didn't want to use him there, Chewie could have shown up in the Falcon and chased Kylo off with the gun attached to the hull of the falcon. Anything would have been better than completely devaluing the villain of the entire thing the first chance they get.
    At this point, get a stormtrooper to kill Kylo in single combat. He's done.

    Yeah. Disney says it's all about diversity, but they're simply using diversity to combat diversity. Look at what they've done to Lando. Look at what they did to Finn. His entire purpose in TLJ was pointless and stupid in a way I've never quite experienced in a "serious" film before. He's a minstrel and an embarrassment. They did this so white people who complained about him being a stupid character would be criticized for doing so. They didn't consider all the black people who would be offended. Lucasfilm pretends to care about diversity. They're actual goals are quite the opposite.

    I'm a feminist, and I hate everything they've done in the name of feminism. Ripley, Connor, Organa, Targaryen ... There's an awesome way to give women roles that will be remembered for a long time.

    [​IMG]

    And then there's a way to make sure that the role women play in Hollywood is forgettable.

    [​IMG]
     
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