Myths of the Katana...

[iceflame5150]

well i dont base my studys on the internet. i find it to be a waste of time to study off of it, the things i have said were from books. a book about weopons armor and midevil stature. the uchigatana was the single edged sword used in fights during there times. katana's are not made for armor cutting your right thats what the blade i mentioned earlier is for, it was made for it.i have no doubt that the katana was not a combat sword, why? becouse there are so many other swords that may look similar but have a very different use. such as the uchigatana and the katana are to a uneducated person the same thing, it is not an uchigatana was used for battles and the sol purpose of killing someone in armor. the katana was not. the katana is not the only single edged blade its a type of single edge blade. but the katana type did not exist untill the edo period. the word katana does not mean japanese sword becosue the katana is a type of nihonto witch mean japanese sword something people mix up alot so i could be talking about a specific sword and some people will say katana witch is untrue a katana is totally different from other nihonto.

oh by the way the swords on those sites look impressive

[diamyonobunaga]

you are right iceflame to some degree. katana were not used in war they were used when fighting on the streets when the civil war came to an end. uchiagatana was simply THE katana just an early form. Justice and many other people have sayd true things about the katana, it can cut through people very well and bend easier and stays bent, however save the armor opener's for yari's and naganata's, this isnt saying the samurai didnt have swords capable becouse as you said there was a sword that could cut(probly thrusted through) through armor why wouldnt there be?? the samurai had to use something againt armourd opponents becouse there armor was just as efecient as europeans as far as standing up to slashes. im sure any samurai back in those times would not have wielded his katana on the battlefield, he would have a more combat efficient one made, he wont dirty a sword that defines who he is.

but i would like to ask a question, wouldnt it be possible to make a katana (or an actual japanese war sword) able to slice like it does and thrust???

also not to get off topic but how would you guys compare chinese swords liek the dao or jian to these european and japanese swords (it sems that europeans and japanese get all the credit for best weapons)

[dragoon]

Sorry to say this but you can look it up on wikipedia and it says all the same stuff about the myth of it being folded heaps and the way it takes its natural curve and the carbon being burnt out etc but the effectiveness and cutting capability have made the japanese sword a true legend.

[Greybeard]

No, what made the katana a legend is the combination of western hype and the death of western swordsmanship.

[Rothan]

It's important to note that the original, traditional style of crafting katanas has been lost for generations, so we really can't really form strong opinions based on the crafting of katanas. However, I do have an old wakizashi that belong to a WWII Japanese fighter pilot which sat at the bottom of the sea for a number of years. The rust and damage to the steel of the blade is remarkable, to say the least. But, the blade is still sharper than any modern sharpened weapon I've held. I could almost feel my skin being cut by letting the blade rest atop my arm. If this is any indication of the original construction of the blades, then it's most impressive.

Rothan

[Onimech]

WWII era nogunto's were not really made with any specific metallurgy in mind that separated them from anyone else's blades. The sharpness you mentioned comes from the fact that the edge of the blade begins at 40% past the back end of the blade. It is the shape involved that maintains an edge while under corrosion. The whole front half of the blade would have to be broken off first before there would be no tapered edge present.

[Rothan]

Well, formation of the blade would be part of the construction, would it not?

Rothan

[Onimech]

Not on a nogunto, they were factory made just as any knife at the time.

[Jenson Carter]

Originally Posted by Justice

This is just to help disperse the action flick anime inspired air about the Japanese katana. These days people think the katana is the A #1 numero uno ichiban of weapons. A katana can cut other swords in half. They weighed nothing. They withstood hundreds of years of cutting armour without getting a scratch. So forth.

All wrong. Shame on you if you believed any of that. Here is a somewhat concise list of what myths are absolutely false, what are untrue, and what is misleading.

1. Katanas are folded hundreds of times during the forging process.

False. A katana might not even be folded at all. I will get into folded steel later. Get a sheet of paper and fold it in half. You have two layers. Fold it again. You have four. One more time and you have eight. Each time you fold the steel you double the layers in the blade. Only 9 times will bring it to 1024 layers. Most katanas do not need to have more than 4096. A sword may have thousands of layers of steel, but it is not folded that many times. Folding the steel hundreds of times makes the layers become so small they become sub atomic, therefore eradicating the layered effect you tried to produce.

2. A folded steel katana is much stronger than a non folded steel katana.

False. In fact these days a non folded katana will actually have more structural strength than a folded katana to some extent. Folding the steel always allows for some kind of mistake to be made, perhaps tiny gaps in the layers of a blade that was not folded and laminated properly. The reason steel was folded is because japanese steel was often impure and brittle. Parts of the sword may be very strong, and others very weak. Folding the steel evens out the blade, giving the sword no specific weak point. The sword may overall become slightly weaker, but with even strength. A sword with a brittle section would undoubtedly snap during usage.

3. "Tempered" means folded.

False. Not at all. Many people claim that even the hamon pattern, the hardened portion of the blade that appears whitish in color, means the blade is folded. The tempering or hardening of a blade has nothing to do with whether or not it is folded.

4. A katana can cut other swords in half.

False. The edge of the katana ma be harder than the rest of the blade, but hard does not mean indestructable. In fact it means the exact opposite in this case. The harder the steel, the more brittle it becomes. hard steel can hold a sharper edge longer, but it also sacrifices strength. In fact katanas are usually brittle weapons. they have to be pampered or else it will be damaged or destroyed. Even cutting rolled up straw mats can bend a japanese katana.

European swords are through hardened. The steel is the same hardness at every part of the blade. They are also extremely flexible and will return to the originl shape. Japanese katanas are dfferentially hardened (most of them, some special makers through harden them) and will bend and stay bent. The hamon can be damaged and possibly flake off, and the sword will be useless unless straightned by an experienced polisher for probably a lot of money.

There was a video on the internet showing a katana cutting a bullet in half. The blade was gripped in a vice and a bullet was fired at it, cutting it in two. Howver most bullets are very soft lead, or maybe copper jacketed. Lead and copper stand no chance against steel in a strength competition so the video is interesting, but unfascinating.

5. Katanas weigh less than other swords.

Depends. In fact a katana can weigh much more than a similar sized eauropean sword. Very few swords with a 29 inch blade require two hands for usage, but many japanese katanas need two hands to weild properly. Katana blades were usually very thick at the time they are forged, mostly because a great deal of the blade could be polished off during the swords lifetime. Steel weihs the same no matter what sword you make, but the Europeans relied on pommels for counter balance, katanas had no pommels, but instead a thicker tang in the grip.

That is all for now. I would love for people to add of to this thread or ask questions.

With all due respect, although much of this is true, I must amend on the very biased information I have seen here. As a person who has studied swords for years, and is very interested in samurai warfare and Japanese arts, I feel an obligation to clear some things up.
1) Katana may not be folded hundreds of times but they, on average, are folded at least 26 times. Don't worry. I did the math for you. 2^26 is 67,108,864 layers. The minimum standard for folds was at least 16.
2) It is entirely true that folded steel katana are better than non folded steel katana. Folding steel beats the trapped air bubbles in the poor grade japanese ore out of the blade as well as forcing out many impurities a blade might have. When the hard edge of a blade only comes from the clay tempering, many impurities are left in the steel and the ridge and mune (back part of the blade) are left soft and will dent easily.
3) It is true that tempering and folding are different. The hamon pattern does come from painting clay in such a pattern on the blade just before tempering. However, the distinctive quality of a folded sword is the faint, wood like grain that is referred to as the mark of "sanmai" steel. Impurities from inside the blade that do not come out in sparks, settle on the outside of the blade, making lighter patterns appear on the blade.
4) You're completely right that the katana cannot cut through other swords. However, you seem confused on a couple of points. The first is the make up of a katana. The katana is entirely high carbon steel. However, the first degree of hardness is the ridge of the blade, where the steel is more ductile and flexible (this only applies to non-folded steel swords, since folded steel swords have the lower carbon steel in the core). The second degree of hardness is the edge of the blade where the steel cooled quicker, causing the iron and carbon atoms to become much closer to each other and are less easily moved. That brings me to the second point you seem confused on which is the meaning of differentially hardened. Differentially hardened means that the edge of the sword is made to be hard so it holds a better edge while the ridge and mune are more ductile so they make the blade tougher. Despite the differences in hardness between the two parts of the blade, the chemical structure of the two kinds of steel are homogeneous throughout the whole of the blade. Folding the steel emphasizes that even more by folding layers with the minutest differences in carbon make up together to make them homogeneous. As for your point about the katana needing to be babysat, the reason the samurai took such good care of the katana wasn't because they were afraid that it would break. It was because the samurai believed that the katana was a part of their soul. One samurai may have kept the same sword throughout his entire life, even through times of war. They are no more brittle than any other sword.
5) The katana does in fact way more than many swords but, at an average of 3 pounds, it was slightly lighter than many european longswords. It isn't featherweight but it definately isn't lugged around like a rock (not saying that Euro swords are). Actually, the reason why a katana user uses the blade with two hands is because it allows for a much wider range of motion and adaptation as well as putting more power behind their thrusts and cuts. Leverage is the key. Also, yes, the katana does have a pommel. It's called the kashira. It isn't as heavy as the pommel of a European sword but it is there. The tang actually spreads the mass of the handle out and provides for, in my opinion, much better balance.

As a couple of extra notes, the sharpened sword is in fact banned for common ownership in Japan, but certain smiths are given permits to make them in the traditional manner so that the art stays alive and certain sword schools are allowed to use them under certain permits that require the swords be kept on the dojo's grounds at all times. Also, I have no idea where you're getting the "katanas bend and stay that way even when they cut up tatami mats" thing.

My sources on all of these things are, http://video.pbs.org/video/1150578495 [Nova: Secrets of the Samurai Sword], http://bugei.com/videogallery.html [this is James Williams' personal website. He is a famous practitioner of the Japanese sword arts and he, with some of his associates, forge traditionally made katana swords. He has many more videos than this but he always has used the same sword.] By the Sword, by Richard Cohen, The art of the Japanese sword, by Niklaus Suino and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQRFuBeRAi4 [Fight Science. The voice over is dramatized a lot and Bren Foster is a little too flashy, but it doesn't change the science.]

[Onimech]

1. The comment was about the number of folds vs. the number of layers. Many people mistakenly believe that the blade itself was actually folded several thousand times by the maker not that it lacked that many layers. Although it is true that there is a maximum number of times a blade can be folded before each fold in fact weakens the integrity of the blade and it becomes more brittle with each fold. When I was learning how to work on blades years ago I was told the maximum number of times a blade can be folded was between 15 and 20 depending on blade thickness. A 1/4 inch thick blade can at maximum 18 or so times. The might not be folded at all comment was about the cheaply manufactured mass produced blades made during the Sengoku Period. When it was too time consuming and expensive for each soldier to have a specific treated blade.

2. I think he meant in the modern context. Many people believe that a blade simply must be folded if it is to have any strength at all, or it would be superpowerful in some way after folding.

4. Incorrect, The blade of a Katana is in fact much more brittle than that of most swords out there due to both thickness and temper. They were in fact very brittle at the edge and prone to cracking, sometimes cracking off entirely. So where it might have looked like he said the entire blade would break easily, he meant that the hardened razor edge which cannot easily take a direct impact edge to edge. This also gives it very little armor penetration ability. I have actually seen this in action more than once at WMA, the edge of differently treated katanas are prone to cracking after use against other blades.

5. I am really going to have to ask you to describe what you consider the "Average" European Longsword. The Norwegian Iron longswords typically called Viking Swords which were pattern welded iron which weighed on average 5-6 lbs, the English steel longsword of the 1300's and on which was around 3lbs, the Germanic messer which was in the 3-5 range, the Italian schiavona that kept a 3lb weight, the later European saber which was meant to have a heavier topweight above the guard near 5lbs, or the Rapier that rarely exceeded 2lbs?

And he meant by pommel was a counterweight at the end of the handle. Not that there was nothing there at all. The Kashira does nothing to counterbalance the overall weight of the blade. Like he said earlier, that was accomplished by a thicker tang. However in my experience the thick tang absorbs shock very poorly. Causing one to loose grip or damage the handle. While the end pommel absorbs the shock of a blow without affecting the hands or handle in any meaningful way.

[Jenson Carter]

1) The number of layers he described a katana having was also incorrect, unless it was only folded about 5 times. Most of the time when a katana is manufactured, if they're only going to fold it that many times, they skip the process entirely.

2) Good enough, though he should be specific about that. One can't make assumptions about these things.

4) I'm gonna need to see sources on that or concession. My scientific sources disagree with you completely on that point. Where does it say that a differentially hardened sword is more brittle than a singularly hardened blade? Also, what idiotic swordsman parries with the edge of his blade?

5) Even the average weight of the swords you listed is heavier than a katana. The rapier is the general exception to that rule because they were made to be light. In general, the katana is 2.8 to 3 pounds which is heavier than many blades but lighter than many also. The mistake most people make is comparing it to only one class of blade.

[Greybeard]

Originally Posted by Onimech

5. I am really going to have to ask you to describe what you consider the "Average" European Longsword. The Norwegian Iron longswords typically called Viking Swords which were pattern welded iron which weighed on average 5-6 lbs, the English steel longsword of the 1300's and on which was around 3lbs, the Germanic messer which was in the 3-5 range, the Italian schiavona that kept a 3lb weight, the later European saber which was meant to have a heavier topweight above the guard near 5lbs, or the Rapier that rarely exceeded 2lbs?

What is your source for that? I've seen no reliable source that indicates more than 2.5-3 lbs for European swords from the last quarter of the first millennium AD, whether made in Norway or not.

Actually, I strongly doubt any European medieval arming sword broke three pounds.

[Rua Rí]

Fascinating thread and thank you to all for contributing.